8 ms·

I'm so done with React. Since Vercel kidnapped it everything is done for/because of their platform and their interests. Most evil company I've seen in a long ti

I'm so done with React. Since Vercel kidnapped it everything is done for/because of their platform and their interests. Most evil company I've seen in a long time.

Capricorn2481 2y ago
What's a negative development in React that was only for Vercel?
hipadev23 2y ago
An innocent dev was just overcharged $5k by Vercel while reading your comment.
STRiDEX 2y ago
driven by facebook in this case https://x.com/sophiebits/status/1800966114048147495 https://x.com/sophiebits/status/1800966114048147495
- MBCook 2y ago
  So they made the choice that worked well in the mega-scale application they tested with and performed worse with the pattern they didn’t think was too widely used/would be much of a problem. And it would make planned future features easier. That sounds 100% reasonable. Someone noticed it, pointed out it was a big problem for them and enough others it got reverted. That seems 100% reasonable too.
realusername 2y ago
The whole js ecosystem is insanity, React isn't even the worst offender, it's a machine to generate complexity. My controversial opinion is still the same, the less front-end you have in your stack, the easiest you'll be able to scale.
- rglover 2y ago
  Yargh, there still be some sanity left on these seas [1]. [1] https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick
- whoknowsidont 2y ago
  >The whole js ecosystem is insanity This is such a lazy, grandstandy, unoriginal take. >My controversial opinion is still the same It's not controversial it's just tired and ignorant.
  - realusername 2y ago
    > It's not controversial it's just tired and ignorant Tired maybe but not ignorant since I helped to maintain two React SPAs for 6 years now so I'm pretty aware how bad it is.
    - theultdev 2y ago
      Well, still a subjective take. Heavy use of interactivity is hard. React makes it maintainable. It was hell before. I've been working with React (and RN) since it came out and I've had nothing but good experiences, especially compared to the previous decade before React. My motto is local-first, the more stuff the client does, the cheaper it is to scale and less bridging between the server you have to do. Move everything to the client, especially the database. Let the database do the syncing. Plus you get offline and undo/redo basically for free. Pagination? Fuggetaboutit.
      - MBCook 2y ago
        (Not a GP). Yeah. I use and like React. I don’t have an issue with it. It’s not tiny but it does a lot of work and makes my life easy. My general complaint is the JS ecosystem in general and its tooling.
      - apsurd 2y ago
        > Heavy use of interactivity is hard. React makes it maintainable. It was hell before. Agree, React is great for UI interactivity. > ...the more stuff the client does, the cheaper it is to scale and less bridging between the server you have to do. Disagree. The most costly form of scaling is people. UI + business-logic + data-modeling + data access (ACL) all held in async client concepts is a complexity nightmare in my experience. Even for my team-of-one side-projects. Server <-> client bridge is a feature for managing complexity over time. I may agree that added ceremony could make 95% tile app experiences default harder. But for anything that's not a toy, the #1 risk is always team/people/communication complexity.
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  > My controversial opinion is still the same This is the most popular opinion on HN. If anything, it's controversial to say React isn't a dumpster fire
- nine_k 2y ago
  In general, the less code you have, the better. Sadly, many products require sophisticated frontends, the FE is often a core part of the value proposition. React may be overkill in smaller cases, but it's a good tool in these cases of complex dynamic UIs.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Exactly. Things like LiveView (Phoenix) are changing the game somewhat, but if you need a sophisticated frontend, React is still a good way to go. PWAs in particular I think still have a lot of promise, even if they are being (intentionally) stifled by tech companies that have competing interests and want web apps to be as impotent as possible. For simple frontends that don't need to be complex UIs, I definitely don't turn to React (I love simple tried-and-true templating systems like ERB and/or EEX), but I definitely think React has it's place. Not everything should be SPA, but that doesn't mean nothing should.
- hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
  average HN commenter: React is artificial complexity, you should be able to make any website using jQuery and plain HTML, because that's what I did when I last did front-end development in 2007. also average HN commenter: If you use Python for your backend you're a moron, you need to use Rust so the API calls for your 0.5 requests/sec web app finish in 100ms instead of 125ms (note: 99ms is waiting for the database).
  - realusername 2y ago
    I've been maintaining React SPAs for 6 years now so I absolutely know what I'm taking about when I say that it doesn't scale. I experienced all the pains of the js ecosystem.
  - revscat 2y ago
    No one is saying that. People are starting to realize is that JavaScript frameworks are an unnecessary complexity to web application development. People have been seriously turned off by things like angular and react, and with good reason. With the advent of things like hotwire and htmx those JS frameworks are no longer strictly necessary, and many people welcome the news that their importance is fading away. I’m one of them.
- bushbaba 2y ago
  JS Ecosystem just has too much churn. Every 5 years there's some new better way of doing things.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
johnfn 2y ago
The article says that React was about to make a change, the community pointed out it had bad trade-offs, and React backed off. What does that have to do with Vercel? Where's the problem with React here?
- tmpz22 2y ago
  Vercel is a (more?) opinionated ecosystem that influences higher adoption of Server-Side-Rendering and other features. This encourages projects to use more niche APIs like Suspense, and due to the capital, marketing, and bearish adoption of Vercel products by vocal parties (startups) - will influence React's developers to cater to them. I'm agnostic because I quit full stack web development ~6 months ago. I think the product development story sucks and combined with the market economics of the current tech industry is just not fun or profitable to invest my career in. It's -probably- a good thing that stuff like SSR becomes mainstream/required. But I really don't like that one of the main entities behind it, Vercel, has raised $563M as of their latest Series E as they steam towards an IPO of their Framework/Cloud offerings.
  - mglikesbikes 2y ago
    What are you doing after quitting full stack web dev?
- agos 2y ago
  Vercel both made the change and approved the PR
epolanski 2y ago
I don't mind writing react but Vue and Nuxt are saner choices if you want great out of the box performance.
- sesm 2y ago
  Which Next are you talking about here?
  - epolanski 2y ago
    Edited, meant Nuxt
madeofpalk 2y ago
" Most evil company " is quite the statement about some silly javascript library.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Volt 2y ago
  Yeah, imagine if it was about some toy operating system.
sergiotapia 2y ago
This is precisely what happened and is still happening today. And remember, this company pays a lot of money for tech influencers as well.

I'm so done with React. Since Vercel kidnapped it everything is done for/because of their platform and their interests. Most evil company I've seen in a long time.

Capricorn2481 2y ago

What's a negative development in React that was only for Vercel?

hipadev23 2y ago

An innocent dev was just overcharged $5k by Vercel while reading your comment.

STRiDEX 2y ago

driven by facebook in this case https://x.com/sophiebits/status/1800966114048147495 https://x.com/sophiebits/status/1800966114048147495

MBCook 2y ago
So they made the choice that worked well in the mega-scale application they tested with and performed worse with the pattern they didn’t think was too widely used/would be much of a problem. And it would make planned future features easier. That sounds 100% reasonable. Someone noticed it, pointed out it was a big problem for them and enough others it got reverted. That seems 100% reasonable too.

realusername 2y ago

The whole js ecosystem is insanity, React isn't even the worst offender, it's a machine to generate complexity. My controversial opinion is still the same, the less front-end you have in your stack, the easiest you'll be able to scale.

rglover 2y ago
Yargh, there still be some sanity left on these seas [1]. [1] https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick
whoknowsidont 2y ago
>The whole js ecosystem is insanity This is such a lazy, grandstandy, unoriginal take. >My controversial opinion is still the same It's not controversial it's just tired and ignorant.
- realusername 2y ago
  > It's not controversial it's just tired and ignorant Tired maybe but not ignorant since I helped to maintain two React SPAs for 6 years now so I'm pretty aware how bad it is.
  - theultdev 2y ago
    Well, still a subjective take. Heavy use of interactivity is hard. React makes it maintainable. It was hell before. I've been working with React (and RN) since it came out and I've had nothing but good experiences, especially compared to the previous decade before React. My motto is local-first, the more stuff the client does, the cheaper it is to scale and less bridging between the server you have to do. Move everything to the client, especially the database. Let the database do the syncing. Plus you get offline and undo/redo basically for free. Pagination? Fuggetaboutit.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      (Not a GP). Yeah. I use and like React. I don’t have an issue with it. It’s not tiny but it does a lot of work and makes my life easy. My general complaint is the JS ecosystem in general and its tooling.
    - apsurd 2y ago
      > Heavy use of interactivity is hard. React makes it maintainable. It was hell before. Agree, React is great for UI interactivity. > ...the more stuff the client does, the cheaper it is to scale and less bridging between the server you have to do. Disagree. The most costly form of scaling is people. UI + business-logic + data-modeling + data access (ACL) all held in async client concepts is a complexity nightmare in my experience. Even for my team-of-one side-projects. Server <-> client bridge is a feature for managing complexity over time. I may agree that added ceremony could make 95% tile app experiences default harder. But for anything that's not a toy, the #1 risk is always team/people/communication complexity.
Capricorn2481 2y ago
> My controversial opinion is still the same This is the most popular opinion on HN. If anything, it's controversial to say React isn't a dumpster fire
nine_k 2y ago
In general, the less code you have, the better. Sadly, many products require sophisticated frontends, the FE is often a core part of the value proposition. React may be overkill in smaller cases, but it's a good tool in these cases of complex dynamic UIs.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Exactly. Things like LiveView (Phoenix) are changing the game somewhat, but if you need a sophisticated frontend, React is still a good way to go. PWAs in particular I think still have a lot of promise, even if they are being (intentionally) stifled by tech companies that have competing interests and want web apps to be as impotent as possible. For simple frontends that don't need to be complex UIs, I definitely don't turn to React (I love simple tried-and-true templating systems like ERB and/or EEX), but I definitely think React has it's place. Not everything should be SPA, but that doesn't mean nothing should.
hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
average HN commenter: React is artificial complexity, you should be able to make any website using jQuery and plain HTML, because that's what I did when I last did front-end development in 2007. also average HN commenter: If you use Python for your backend you're a moron, you need to use Rust so the API calls for your 0.5 requests/sec web app finish in 100ms instead of 125ms (note: 99ms is waiting for the database).
- realusername 2y ago
  I've been maintaining React SPAs for 6 years now so I absolutely know what I'm taking about when I say that it doesn't scale. I experienced all the pains of the js ecosystem.
- revscat 2y ago
  No one is saying that. People are starting to realize is that JavaScript frameworks are an unnecessary complexity to web application development. People have been seriously turned off by things like angular and react, and with good reason. With the advent of things like hotwire and htmx those JS frameworks are no longer strictly necessary, and many people welcome the news that their importance is fading away. I’m one of them.
bushbaba 2y ago
JS Ecosystem just has too much churn. Every 5 years there's some new better way of doing things.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

johnfn 2y ago

The article says that React was about to make a change, the community pointed out it had bad trade-offs, and React backed off. What does that have to do with Vercel? Where's the problem with React here?

tmpz22 2y ago
Vercel is a (more?) opinionated ecosystem that influences higher adoption of Server-Side-Rendering and other features. This encourages projects to use more niche APIs like Suspense, and due to the capital, marketing, and bearish adoption of Vercel products by vocal parties (startups) - will influence React's developers to cater to them. I'm agnostic because I quit full stack web development ~6 months ago. I think the product development story sucks and combined with the market economics of the current tech industry is just not fun or profitable to invest my career in. It's -probably- a good thing that stuff like SSR becomes mainstream/required. But I really don't like that one of the main entities behind it, Vercel, has raised $563M as of their latest Series E as they steam towards an IPO of their Framework/Cloud offerings.
- mglikesbikes 2y ago
  What are you doing after quitting full stack web dev?
agos 2y ago
Vercel both made the change and approved the PR

epolanski 2y ago

I don't mind writing react but Vue and Nuxt are saner choices if you want great out of the box performance.

sesm 2y ago
Which Next are you talking about here?
- epolanski 2y ago
  Edited, meant Nuxt

madeofpalk 2y ago

" Most evil company " is quite the statement about some silly javascript library.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Volt 2y ago
Yeah, imagine if it was about some toy operating system.

sergiotapia 2y ago

This is precisely what happened and is still happening today. And remember, this company pays a lot of money for tech influencers as well.