4 ms·

I'm convinced this happened recently with LED bulbs as well, even though I've found no definitive proof. The LEDs I installed in my house 10-12 years ago are st

I'm convinced this happened recently with LED bulbs as well, even though I've found no definitive proof. The LEDs I installed in my house 10-12 years ago are still going strong, but every newer one I've purchased gives up the ghost within a couple of years. And I only purchase brands with a good reputation, like Feit and the like.

TonyTrapp 2y ago
There's a variety of reasons: - Lower-quality components (especially capacitors) being used to meet the lower price point. This is by far the most common failure mode I have experienced, it's never the LEDs dying but the power supply. - Higher-quality LED light is usually result of driving the LEDs harder, causing them to fail earlier. - Probably some other reasons too.
- Frenchgeek 2y ago
  The design may also be completely ignoring heat dissipation, and cook its components.
- tiberious726 2y ago
  From what I've seen, it's usually skimping on the heatsink over the rectifier.
CapitalistCartr 2y ago
The LEDs themselves are made in a handful of factories around the World and are usually robust. The power supplies are the weakness. Each bulb manufacturer makes their own, and it's a race to the bottom.
surge 2y ago
The rule of thumb I've found with light bulbs is similar to the Boots Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory), which is you need to spend at least $8-$10 on a bulb to get something that will actually last. Feit is good but its hit or miss on life span, especially when I get them close to the same price and incandescent, often times its the little A/C to DC converter that dies (really need DC light circuits or dedicated converter in the light fixture). I feel its worth spending the extra to not replace them.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Having lived most of my life with incandescent bulbs which you could buy at four for a dollar if you watched for sales, the idea of paying $8-10 for a light bulb is insane to me. I have probably close to 50 bulbs in my house. But yes, the reasonably-priced LED bulbs don't last any longer than incandescents. I am replacing a few every year around the house. The saving grace is that they generate a lot less heat. I was in a house the other day that still had incandescent bulbs in the bathroom fixures, and could feel the heat from them as soon as I switched them on.
  - surge 2y ago
    You'd have to do the math, but similar to boots theory, if you're spending 2-3 times as much for something that lasts 5-10 times as long (50k hours for a good LED vs 1.2k hours for incandescent) you will save a lot more money in the long run (lets assume the 4/$1 deals are a thing of the past with inflation and reduction in production). Also cheap DC converters create more heat than the bulbs with decent ones. It's worth slowly buying expensive bulbs, at least start with the most used lights in your house and replace those with the expensive ones. You can keep cheap bulbs in your closets, spare rooms, etc assuming you don't forget to turn them off often (then you should get the most efficient/long lasting or get one with a motion timer). I actually swapped out my shower light because it got so hot the insulating wire melted and it created a short. Took forever to figure out, but once I did, I got a nice $30/$40 shower light fixture that went right in the same spot and its much nicer now. I'm just glad the short was running through metal wire/fiberglass and never started a fire.
  - brianshaler 2y ago
    In a bathroom, a hot lamp is likely intentional. It's typically on its own circuit for use while taking a hot shower.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      No, these were just ordinary (clear) bulbs over the sink/vanity
Scoundreller 2y ago
At least you have a fighting chance of fixing your LED bulb, unlike an incandescent. Usually they’re over-driven and you can jump a burned out LED and scrape off a bit of a resistor to reduce the amount of current going through to (over-)account for the reduced current need. https://youtu.be/JBKF7rKB3zc https://youtu.be/JBKF7rKB3zc
seventyone 2y ago
There is definitive proof. They over-drive the LEDs which is why they die so quickly. If they were under-driven they last much much longer. It's the heat that kills them IIRC.
- kube-system 2y ago
  That design doesn't prove anything about any malicious intent to decrease the lifespan of the bulb, any more than it proves that they're optimizing lumens/dollar for the customers who want it.
  - Dutchie987 2y ago
    They are optimizing dollars extracted per customer. Either that, or they are so incompetent designing electronics they shouldn't be allowed to.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      Unfortunately, electronics design does not operate outside the bounds of economics. Given a target retail price of ~$1.25/unit -- many of these bulbs are the best design possible. The existence of poor quality products does not indicate malice -- many buyers demand low end products. Cost/quality/performance is an engineering tradeoff without a "correct" answer. The answer is up to the opinion of the customer.
      - Dutchie987 2y ago
        I think that argument only holds when the customer is informed about those specific tradeoffs. The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. Buyers want cheap bulbs, they don't want crap bulbs. If that means $1.25/unit is impossible, so be it.
        kube-system 2y ago
        Or alternatively, the customer simply DGAF about the quality of their $1.25 purchase. I have $1.25 bulbs in my home. I use them in unimportant locations with infrequent use. They are perfectly serviceable for this use. > The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. This is a big problem for all consumer products. The root of the problem is that most consumers are wholly unqualified to be a judge of engineering quality themselves, few even know how to effectively obtain trustworthy information about quality, and those who do often value their time more than the effort required to do so. For larger purchases, some people who care to be informed will do some research, but I don't really think there's a solution for products <$500.
404mm 2y ago
I recommend watching this: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li... Only shows you bulbs can be made well and last long. But those are not for you. (Assuming most readers here are not Saudi)

TonyTrapp 2y ago

There's a variety of reasons: - Lower-quality components (especially capacitors) being used to meet the lower price point. This is by far the most common failure mode I have experienced, it's never the LEDs dying but the power supply. - Higher-quality LED light is usually result of driving the LEDs harder, causing them to fail earlier. - Probably some other reasons too.

Frenchgeek 2y ago
The design may also be completely ignoring heat dissipation, and cook its components.
tiberious726 2y ago
From what I've seen, it's usually skimping on the heatsink over the rectifier.

CapitalistCartr 2y ago

The LEDs themselves are made in a handful of factories around the World and are usually robust. The power supplies are the weakness. Each bulb manufacturer makes their own, and it's a race to the bottom.

surge 2y ago

The rule of thumb I've found with light bulbs is similar to the Boots Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory), which is you need to spend at least $8-$10 on a bulb to get something that will actually last. Feit is good but its hit or miss on life span, especially when I get them close to the same price and incandescent, often times its the little A/C to DC converter that dies (really need DC light circuits or dedicated converter in the light fixture). I feel its worth spending the extra to not replace them.

SoftTalker 2y ago
Having lived most of my life with incandescent bulbs which you could buy at four for a dollar if you watched for sales, the idea of paying $8-10 for a light bulb is insane to me. I have probably close to 50 bulbs in my house. But yes, the reasonably-priced LED bulbs don't last any longer than incandescents. I am replacing a few every year around the house. The saving grace is that they generate a lot less heat. I was in a house the other day that still had incandescent bulbs in the bathroom fixures, and could feel the heat from them as soon as I switched them on.
- surge 2y ago
  You'd have to do the math, but similar to boots theory, if you're spending 2-3 times as much for something that lasts 5-10 times as long (50k hours for a good LED vs 1.2k hours for incandescent) you will save a lot more money in the long run (lets assume the 4/$1 deals are a thing of the past with inflation and reduction in production). Also cheap DC converters create more heat than the bulbs with decent ones. It's worth slowly buying expensive bulbs, at least start with the most used lights in your house and replace those with the expensive ones. You can keep cheap bulbs in your closets, spare rooms, etc assuming you don't forget to turn them off often (then you should get the most efficient/long lasting or get one with a motion timer). I actually swapped out my shower light because it got so hot the insulating wire melted and it created a short. Took forever to figure out, but once I did, I got a nice $30/$40 shower light fixture that went right in the same spot and its much nicer now. I'm just glad the short was running through metal wire/fiberglass and never started a fire.
- brianshaler 2y ago
  In a bathroom, a hot lamp is likely intentional. It's typically on its own circuit for use while taking a hot shower.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    No, these were just ordinary (clear) bulbs over the sink/vanity

Scoundreller 2y ago

At least you have a fighting chance of fixing your LED bulb, unlike an incandescent. Usually they’re over-driven and you can jump a burned out LED and scrape off a bit of a resistor to reduce the amount of current going through to (over-)account for the reduced current need. https://youtu.be/JBKF7rKB3zc https://youtu.be/JBKF7rKB3zc

seventyone 2y ago

There is definitive proof. They over-drive the LEDs which is why they die so quickly. If they were under-driven they last much much longer. It's the heat that kills them IIRC.

kube-system 2y ago
That design doesn't prove anything about any malicious intent to decrease the lifespan of the bulb, any more than it proves that they're optimizing lumens/dollar for the customers who want it.
- Dutchie987 2y ago
  They are optimizing dollars extracted per customer. Either that, or they are so incompetent designing electronics they shouldn't be allowed to.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    Unfortunately, electronics design does not operate outside the bounds of economics. Given a target retail price of ~$1.25/unit -- many of these bulbs are the best design possible. The existence of poor quality products does not indicate malice -- many buyers demand low end products. Cost/quality/performance is an engineering tradeoff without a "correct" answer. The answer is up to the opinion of the customer.
    - Dutchie987 2y ago
      I think that argument only holds when the customer is informed about those specific tradeoffs. The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. Buyers want cheap bulbs, they don't want crap bulbs. If that means $1.25/unit is impossible, so be it.
      - kube-system 2y ago
        Or alternatively, the customer simply DGAF about the quality of their $1.25 purchase. I have $1.25 bulbs in my home. I use them in unimportant locations with infrequent use. They are perfectly serviceable for this use. > The customer will choose the cheap bulbs because they can't be sure the expensive ones are better quality. They often aren't. This is a big problem for all consumer products. The root of the problem is that most consumers are wholly unqualified to be a judge of engineering quality themselves, few even know how to effectively obtain trustworthy information about quality, and those who do often value their time more than the effort required to do so. For larger purchases, some people who care to be informed will do some research, but I don't really think there's a solution for products <$500.

404mm 2y ago

I recommend watching this: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li... Only shows you bulbs can be made well and last long. But those are not for you. (Assuming most readers here are not Saudi)