4 ms·

Can memories be explicitly encoded in genes? If not then no. End of the story.

by humansareok1 2y ago

ch4s3 2y ago
To the best of my understanding, no and I'm aware of any proposed mechanism.
- alkonaut 2y ago
  Isn’t the article describing in depth how an experiment showed it possible or did I completely misread it? It even explained the mechanisms behind it?
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    The article glosses over some details of a decade old study, that might have maybe shown that some types of conditioning using electrical shock might have epigenetic effects that persist in gametes and effect later behavior. The study attempts to show it indirectly and hand waves at the mechanisms. It doesn’t test for DNA methylation or anything similar.
    - oa335 2y ago
      They did test for and find hypomethylation. It’s mentioned in the article here: > How had this happened? The team discovered that the DNA in the grandfather mouse’s sperm had changed shape. … The gene for this olfactory receptor had been demethylated (chemically tagged), … As well as in the abstract of the linked study: > Bisulfite sequencing of sperm DNA from conditioned F0 males and F1 naive offspring revealed CpG hypomethylation in the Olfr151 gene. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24292232/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24292232/
      - ch4s3 2y ago
        I must have missed that reading the study, and that certainly is a little more compelling. I'm still very skeptical about the way the guardian article presents the claims, and the lack of any mention of follow up work since the decade old study.
- amelius 2y ago
  From TFA: > The study made use of mice’s love of cherries. Typically, when a waft of sweet cherry scent reaches a mouse’s nose, a signal is sent to the nucleus accumbens, causing this pleasure zone to light up and motivate the mouse to scurry around in search of the treat. The scientists exposed a group of mice first to a cherry-like smell and then immediately to a mild electric shock. The mice quickly learned to freeze in anticipation every time they smelled cherries. They had pups, and their pups were left to lead happy lives without electric shocks, though with no access to cherries. The pups grew up and had offspring of their own. > At this point, the scientists took up the experiment again. Could the acquired association of a shock with the sweet smell possibly have been transmitted to the third generation? It had. The grandpups were highly fearful of and more sensitive to the smell of cherries.
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    I read the underlying study. It’s pretty shy on experimental details, and while an epigenetic change is the possible mechanism they don’t directly show that. It’s also a huge leap from the guardian article’s claim that memories are inherited.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      They're not claiming that, though.
      - ch4s3 2y ago
        The article includes this passage: > Might this new understanding increase our capacity for self-awareness and empathy? If we can grasp the potential impact of our ancestors’ experiences on our own behaviour, might we be more understanding of others, who are also carrying the inherited weight of experience? They are literally refereeing to the concept of inherited trauma and inter-generational memory throughout the piece. It's a favorite hobby-horse of the guardian and while they are somewhat subtle here and dress it up by picking a very old study, they are in fact talking about the kind of ideas appearing in popular self help books like The Body Keeps the Score, and other things in their orbit. The author of the article in question is hawking a similar book on the guardian's books platform.
keithalewis 2y ago
But never the end of clickbait.
dmd 2y ago
Your understanding is half a century out of date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics Note that I'm not claiming here that memories can be encoded in genes; I'm also not making a strong claim here that memories can be encoded epigenetically! What I am arguing against is the claim that the only possible method of transmission of traits is through DNA, which is what parent comment said, and has been out of date for quite some time.
- humansareok1 2y ago
  Oh yeah so you want to explain how Epigenetics can transfer the memory of my Grandfathers 17th Birthday Party to my brain?
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    ELI5 attempt: Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When you reproduce, you pass on the book + the earmarks on the pages. In your comment, the word "Explicitly" is the controversial part. Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4? lol) encoded in genetics. But effects pass on, or so says the field. It's the same as how the word "Memories" in the title is doing a lot of hand-wavey hype generation. Can I share a password or birthday party during intercourse? Of course not.
    - humansareok1 2y ago
      >Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4? lol) encoded in genetics. Indeed so the answer to the question: Can you inherit memories from your ancestors? Is No. Full stop. You want to talk about how the vibes during your grandparents lives affected some obscure part of your parents health then ok. But these things are completely different.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        >Can you inherit memories from your ancestors? Is No. Full stop. With our current knowledge, we cannot either prove or disprove this.
passion__desire 2y ago
"Nobody would suppose that the fact that human beings everywhere always throw their spears pointy-end first shows that there must be a gene for a pointy-end-first instinct." - Daniel Dennett. Counterpoint : "But, as Weiss discovered in a 2008 study, moths and butterflies can retain memories from their time as caterpillars, suggesting that the creatures' nervous system remains during the transformation into a butterfly."

Can memories be explicitly encoded in genes? If not then no. End of the story.

ch4s3 2y ago

To the best of my understanding, no and I'm aware of any proposed mechanism.

alkonaut 2y ago
Isn’t the article describing in depth how an experiment showed it possible or did I completely misread it? It even explained the mechanisms behind it?
- ch4s3 2y ago
  The article glosses over some details of a decade old study, that might have maybe shown that some types of conditioning using electrical shock might have epigenetic effects that persist in gametes and effect later behavior. The study attempts to show it indirectly and hand waves at the mechanisms. It doesn’t test for DNA methylation or anything similar.
  - oa335 2y ago
    They did test for and find hypomethylation. It’s mentioned in the article here: > How had this happened? The team discovered that the DNA in the grandfather mouse’s sperm had changed shape. … The gene for this olfactory receptor had been demethylated (chemically tagged), … As well as in the abstract of the linked study: > Bisulfite sequencing of sperm DNA from conditioned F0 males and F1 naive offspring revealed CpG hypomethylation in the Olfr151 gene. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24292232/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24292232/
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      I must have missed that reading the study, and that certainly is a little more compelling. I'm still very skeptical about the way the guardian article presents the claims, and the lack of any mention of follow up work since the decade old study.
amelius 2y ago
From TFA: > The study made use of mice’s love of cherries. Typically, when a waft of sweet cherry scent reaches a mouse’s nose, a signal is sent to the nucleus accumbens, causing this pleasure zone to light up and motivate the mouse to scurry around in search of the treat. The scientists exposed a group of mice first to a cherry-like smell and then immediately to a mild electric shock. The mice quickly learned to freeze in anticipation every time they smelled cherries. They had pups, and their pups were left to lead happy lives without electric shocks, though with no access to cherries. The pups grew up and had offspring of their own. > At this point, the scientists took up the experiment again. Could the acquired association of a shock with the sweet smell possibly have been transmitted to the third generation? It had. The grandpups were highly fearful of and more sensitive to the smell of cherries.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  I read the underlying study. It’s pretty shy on experimental details, and while an epigenetic change is the possible mechanism they don’t directly show that. It’s also a huge leap from the guardian article’s claim that memories are inherited.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    They're not claiming that, though.
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      The article includes this passage: > Might this new understanding increase our capacity for self-awareness and empathy? If we can grasp the potential impact of our ancestors’ experiences on our own behaviour, might we be more understanding of others, who are also carrying the inherited weight of experience? They are literally refereeing to the concept of inherited trauma and inter-generational memory throughout the piece. It's a favorite hobby-horse of the guardian and while they are somewhat subtle here and dress it up by picking a very old study, they are in fact talking about the kind of ideas appearing in popular self help books like The Body Keeps the Score, and other things in their orbit. The author of the article in question is hawking a similar book on the guardian's books platform.

keithalewis 2y ago

But never the end of clickbait.

dmd 2y ago

Your understanding is half a century out of date. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics Note that I'm not claiming here that memories can be encoded in genes; I'm also not making a strong claim here that memories can be encoded epigenetically! What I am arguing against is the claim that the only possible method of transmission of traits is through DNA, which is what parent comment said, and has been out of date for quite some time.

humansareok1 2y ago
Oh yeah so you want to explain how Epigenetics can transfer the memory of my Grandfathers 17th Birthday Party to my brain?
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  ELI5 attempt: Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When you reproduce, you pass on the book + the earmarks on the pages. In your comment, the word "Explicitly" is the controversial part. Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4? lol) encoded in genetics. But effects pass on, or so says the field. It's the same as how the word "Memories" in the title is doing a lot of hand-wavey hype generation. Can I share a password or birthday party during intercourse? Of course not.
  - humansareok1 2y ago
    >Of course a memory cannot be _explicitly_ (like .mp4? lol) encoded in genetics. Indeed so the answer to the question: Can you inherit memories from your ancestors? Is No. Full stop. You want to talk about how the vibes during your grandparents lives affected some obscure part of your parents health then ok. But these things are completely different.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      >Can you inherit memories from your ancestors? Is No. Full stop. With our current knowledge, we cannot either prove or disprove this.

passion__desire 2y ago

"Nobody would suppose that the fact that human beings everywhere always throw their spears pointy-end first shows that there must be a gene for a pointy-end-first instinct." - Daniel Dennett. Counterpoint : "But, as Weiss discovered in a 2008 study, moths and butterflies can retain memories from their time as caterpillars, suggesting that the creatures' nervous system remains during the transformation into a butterfly."