4 ms·

9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...

by cornel_io 2y ago

baq 2y ago
Apparently not in Australia.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
  - promiseofbeans 2y ago
    There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.
      - sitharus 2y ago
        These cases do not go to court, they go to a tribunal. They are not heard by a judge (or at least a judge in their capacity as a court justice) and the results are not entered as judicial cases and do not set precedent. It’s designed so a lay person can represent themselves without having to understand the justice system. I know in New South Wales companies have to apply for special leave to have a lawyer represent them, and they need to supply a reason why. In New Zealand lawyers are not allowed in the tribunal, a company must be represented by a manager.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        That's details on this specific process but does not change the boarder point...
  - baq 2y ago
    That's the point. If customers don't complain strongly enough, the manufacturer is incentivized to develop products prone to malfunction. If the cost of malfunction is raised, the incentives change. If they got invited to a hundred cases at the same time, they'd send a lawyer and perhaps even would tweak the design to include some extra $1 parts which actually work.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      It's a trade-off. People don't want appliances that break down after a few years but they also want cheap appliances... In this case it seems to boil down to: "In the end he replaced the light bulb (which hadn't worked for years, we hadn't bothered replacing it) and the message had gone away anyway."... i.e. the guy could have replaced the light bulb when it broke and perhaps nothing would have happened in the first place. So this article comes across as complaining too much, frankly.
      - baq 2y ago
        and the next day the error came back and ultimately something else had to be replaced. a failed bulb could result in a 'please change the bulb before the rest of me breaks' on the display, too.
shermozle 2y ago
But the flip of that is that if the manufacturer doesn't think it'll work longer than 2 years, that needs to be disclosed forcefully at sale time.
- cbmuser 2y ago
  It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. Who knows, maybe the author has been using the oven excessively or never cleaned it etc. So far, we‘ve heard one side only.
  - Redneck-Tech 2y ago
    Ninety percent of manufactured goods are ultimately trash, pride in craftsmanship has gone by the wayside. Things are shoved through production with little to no f*cks given in regards to quality, if the S.O.B is just a gnats ass within tolerance, just send it, and pump out as many more as you can because we have quotas and due dates to meet.
  - okanat 2y ago
    > It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. That's actually false. Almost all of the engineered goods are engineered to a certain lifetime. Usually companies have internal endurance testing results for every item. The ones who care about will release their expectations.
memen 2y ago
Warranty is not the same as reasonable expected lifetime. Under warranty, the burden of proof is at the manufacturers side. The 2 years is typical for electric appliances, but it is from jurisprudence only. The law actually states that it should last as long as can reasonably expected. Intentionally vague, but yes, I would expect an oven to last longer than 2 years! In fact, we should be able to build ovens that last a lifetime. And not only ovens, there are many appliances and gear that can easily be made to last a lifetime, except for some wearing parts. However, many companies that did this were competed to bankruptcy by cheap low quality competing products. With the abundance of low(er) quality products, we tend to expect a shorter lifetime.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  I recently replaced an element on our oven. It's 5 years old. Honestly, if manufacturers could make some of that stuff standardised I'd be quite happy to replace or pay to have them replaced. As it happens there are thousands of different shapes of "heating elements shaped to go around the fan". Same with the brushes in our washing machine I changed a while back. Finding the right replacement took more work than actually doing the replacing.
MaxikCZ 2y ago
Yea I too want to be replacing every appliance in my home at least every 4 years. Thats a healthy way to live for sure. /s
promiseofbeans 2y ago
I think you've been conditioned by anti-consumer companies who want you to BUY BUY BUY to expect that. Ovens should last 20 years or more, and if you're sold a faulty product, it's fair to expect it to be fixed. Luckily there are still a few countries at the bottom of the world with good consumer legislation.
- cbmuser 2y ago
  You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?
  - graemep 2y ago
    How will moving production to low wage countries help? The importer and/or the retailer still have to comply with the law of the country they sell in. The only exception is when people buy from a foreign retailer online. However that is a problem regardless of where the retailer is as long as they are not in your country. My daughter (in the UK) currently has a problem with Boox (in the EU) refusing to replace a product that was delivered with a faulty screen claiming that she must have damaged it.
    - gpderetta 2y ago
      Did she pay with credit card? Often even debit cards offer chargeback although it is not a statutory right.
      - graemep 2y ago
        Yes she did but left it rather long for a section 75 because she was busy. Probably going to try that now.
  - promiseofbeans 2y ago
    They're already doing that, so you may as well exercise your rights (and help the environment at the same time).

9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...

baq 2y ago

Apparently not in Australia.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
- promiseofbeans 2y ago
  There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.
    - sitharus 2y ago
      These cases do not go to court, they go to a tribunal. They are not heard by a judge (or at least a judge in their capacity as a court justice) and the results are not entered as judicial cases and do not set precedent. It’s designed so a lay person can represent themselves without having to understand the justice system. I know in New South Wales companies have to apply for special leave to have a lawyer represent them, and they need to supply a reason why. In New Zealand lawyers are not allowed in the tribunal, a company must be represented by a manager.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        That's details on this specific process but does not change the boarder point...
- baq 2y ago
  That's the point. If customers don't complain strongly enough, the manufacturer is incentivized to develop products prone to malfunction. If the cost of malfunction is raised, the incentives change. If they got invited to a hundred cases at the same time, they'd send a lawyer and perhaps even would tweak the design to include some extra $1 parts which actually work.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    It's a trade-off. People don't want appliances that break down after a few years but they also want cheap appliances... In this case it seems to boil down to: "In the end he replaced the light bulb (which hadn't worked for years, we hadn't bothered replacing it) and the message had gone away anyway."... i.e. the guy could have replaced the light bulb when it broke and perhaps nothing would have happened in the first place. So this article comes across as complaining too much, frankly.
    - baq 2y ago
      and the next day the error came back and ultimately something else had to be replaced. a failed bulb could result in a 'please change the bulb before the rest of me breaks' on the display, too.

shermozle 2y ago

But the flip of that is that if the manufacturer doesn't think it'll work longer than 2 years, that needs to be disclosed forcefully at sale time.

cbmuser 2y ago
It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. Who knows, maybe the author has been using the oven excessively or never cleaned it etc. So far, we‘ve heard one side only.
- Redneck-Tech 2y ago
  Ninety percent of manufactured goods are ultimately trash, pride in craftsmanship has gone by the wayside. Things are shoved through production with little to no f*cks given in regards to quality, if the S.O.B is just a gnats ass within tolerance, just send it, and pump out as many more as you can because we have quotas and due dates to meet.
- okanat 2y ago
  > It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. That's actually false. Almost all of the engineered goods are engineered to a certain lifetime. Usually companies have internal endurance testing results for every item. The ones who care about will release their expectations.

memen 2y ago

Warranty is not the same as reasonable expected lifetime. Under warranty, the burden of proof is at the manufacturers side. The 2 years is typical for electric appliances, but it is from jurisprudence only. The law actually states that it should last as long as can reasonably expected. Intentionally vague, but yes, I would expect an oven to last longer than 2 years! In fact, we should be able to build ovens that last a lifetime. And not only ovens, there are many appliances and gear that can easily be made to last a lifetime, except for some wearing parts. However, many companies that did this were competed to bankruptcy by cheap low quality competing products. With the abundance of low(er) quality products, we tend to expect a shorter lifetime.

VBprogrammer 2y ago
I recently replaced an element on our oven. It's 5 years old. Honestly, if manufacturers could make some of that stuff standardised I'd be quite happy to replace or pay to have them replaced. As it happens there are thousands of different shapes of "heating elements shaped to go around the fan". Same with the brushes in our washing machine I changed a while back. Finding the right replacement took more work than actually doing the replacing.

MaxikCZ 2y ago

Yea I too want to be replacing every appliance in my home at least every 4 years. Thats a healthy way to live for sure. /s

promiseofbeans 2y ago

I think you've been conditioned by anti-consumer companies who want you to BUY BUY BUY to expect that. Ovens should last 20 years or more, and if you're sold a faulty product, it's fair to expect it to be fixed. Luckily there are still a few countries at the bottom of the world with good consumer legislation.

cbmuser 2y ago
You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?
- graemep 2y ago
  How will moving production to low wage countries help? The importer and/or the retailer still have to comply with the law of the country they sell in. The only exception is when people buy from a foreign retailer online. However that is a problem regardless of where the retailer is as long as they are not in your country. My daughter (in the UK) currently has a problem with Boox (in the EU) refusing to replace a product that was delivered with a faulty screen claiming that she must have damaged it.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    Did she pay with credit card? Often even debit cards offer chargeback although it is not a statutory right.
    - graemep 2y ago
      Yes she did but left it rather long for a section 75 because she was busy. Probably going to try that now.
- promiseofbeans 2y ago
  They're already doing that, so you may as well exercise your rights (and help the environment at the same time).