6 ms·

The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?

by shermozle 2y ago

cornel_io 2y ago
9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...
- baq 2y ago
  Apparently not in Australia.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
    - promiseofbeans 2y ago
      There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.
        sitharus 2y ago
        These cases do not go to court, they go to a tribunal. They are not heard by a judge (or at least a judge in their capacity as a court justice) and the results are not entered as judicial cases and do not set precedent. It’s designed so a lay person can represent themselves without having to understand the justice system. I know in New South Wales companies have to apply for special leave to have a lawyer represent them, and they need to supply a reason why. In New Zealand lawyers are not allowed in the tribunal, a company must be represented by a manager.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        That's details on this specific process but does not change the boarder point...
    - baq 2y ago
      That's the point. If customers don't complain strongly enough, the manufacturer is incentivized to develop products prone to malfunction. If the cost of malfunction is raised, the incentives change. If they got invited to a hundred cases at the same time, they'd send a lawyer and perhaps even would tweak the design to include some extra $1 parts which actually work.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        It's a trade-off. People don't want appliances that break down after a few years but they also want cheap appliances... In this case it seems to boil down to: "In the end he replaced the light bulb (which hadn't worked for years, we hadn't bothered replacing it) and the message had gone away anyway."... i.e. the guy could have replaced the light bulb when it broke and perhaps nothing would have happened in the first place. So this article comes across as complaining too much, frankly.
        baq 2y ago
        and the next day the error came back and ultimately something else had to be replaced. a failed bulb could result in a 'please change the bulb before the rest of me breaks' on the display, too.
- shermozle 2y ago
  But the flip of that is that if the manufacturer doesn't think it'll work longer than 2 years, that needs to be disclosed forcefully at sale time.
  - cbmuser 2y ago
    It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. Who knows, maybe the author has been using the oven excessively or never cleaned it etc. So far, we‘ve heard one side only.
    - Redneck-Tech 2y ago
      Ninety percent of manufactured goods are ultimately trash, pride in craftsmanship has gone by the wayside. Things are shoved through production with little to no f*cks given in regards to quality, if the S.O.B is just a gnats ass within tolerance, just send it, and pump out as many more as you can because we have quotas and due dates to meet.
    - okanat 2y ago
      > It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. That's actually false. Almost all of the engineered goods are engineered to a certain lifetime. Usually companies have internal endurance testing results for every item. The ones who care about will release their expectations.
- memen 2y ago
  Warranty is not the same as reasonable expected lifetime. Under warranty, the burden of proof is at the manufacturers side. The 2 years is typical for electric appliances, but it is from jurisprudence only. The law actually states that it should last as long as can reasonably expected. Intentionally vague, but yes, I would expect an oven to last longer than 2 years! In fact, we should be able to build ovens that last a lifetime. And not only ovens, there are many appliances and gear that can easily be made to last a lifetime, except for some wearing parts. However, many companies that did this were competed to bankruptcy by cheap low quality competing products. With the abundance of low(er) quality products, we tend to expect a shorter lifetime.
  - VBprogrammer 2y ago
    I recently replaced an element on our oven. It's 5 years old. Honestly, if manufacturers could make some of that stuff standardised I'd be quite happy to replace or pay to have them replaced. As it happens there are thousands of different shapes of "heating elements shaped to go around the fan". Same with the brushes in our washing machine I changed a while back. Finding the right replacement took more work than actually doing the replacing.
- MaxikCZ 2y ago
  Yea I too want to be replacing every appliance in my home at least every 4 years. Thats a healthy way to live for sure. /s
- promiseofbeans 2y ago
  I think you've been conditioned by anti-consumer companies who want you to BUY BUY BUY to expect that. Ovens should last 20 years or more, and if you're sold a faulty product, it's fair to expect it to be fixed. Luckily there are still a few countries at the bottom of the world with good consumer legislation.
  - cbmuser 2y ago
    You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?
    - graemep 2y ago
      How will moving production to low wage countries help? The importer and/or the retailer still have to comply with the law of the country they sell in. The only exception is when people buy from a foreign retailer online. However that is a problem regardless of where the retailer is as long as they are not in your country. My daughter (in the UK) currently has a problem with Boox (in the EU) refusing to replace a product that was delivered with a faulty screen claiming that she must have damaged it.
      - gpderetta 2y ago
        Did she pay with credit card? Often even debit cards offer chargeback although it is not a statutory right.
        graemep 2y ago
        Yes she did but left it rather long for a section 75 because she was busy. Probably going to try that now.
    - promiseofbeans 2y ago
      They're already doing that, so you may as well exercise your rights (and help the environment at the same time).
Jamie9912 2y ago
In my opinion, maybe 20 years at the very least
arp242 2y ago
This is an interesting question; Netherlands has a similar law, and the general guidelines for stuff like ovens is, depending on the purchase price: ≤ € 199 2 years € 200 - 299 3 years € 300 - 399 4 years € 400 - 499 5 years € 500 - 599 6 years € 600 - 699 7 years ≥ € 700 8 years Note these are just guidelines and not fixed rules. On one hand this seems rather short to me, on the other hand, it's kind of a "you get what you pay for" affair. I don't really know what profit margins manufacturers have, but when I worked for a store profit margins for us really weren't all that big for us (and also didn't scale as much with price as many people assume).
- bzzzt 2y ago
  Note that this doesn't mean you get 8 years of warranty on an expensive oven. Just that if it fails in 4 years you still can claim 50% of the purchase price.
  - Denvercoder9 2y ago
    This is not true. You have the right to a "deugdelijk product" (good product) for the entire expected lifespan of the product, and if it breaks in that, they do have to fix it (or provide a comparable replacement). If, however, for whatever reason you don't want that, you can't demand all your money back, but only 50%. That's only if you agree to the money though, the seller can't unilaterally choose to give you 50% back instead of repairing it.
- Denvercoder9 2y ago
  Note that this table comes from "Techniek Nederland", which is a business association of (among others) technical retailers. They've an interest in lowering the expected lifespan of appliances, as that means their members have less warranty to provide. They actually note (probably for legal reasons) along with their table that it contains average usage, not expected lifespan (i.e. how long people use things before they replace it, as opposed to how long you could use it before it breaks). Courts will, and have in the past, throw this table out, if you make a reasonable argument why you could expect a longer lifespan.
jopsen 2y ago
> how long do you think an oven should last? 30 years :) But I actually think it's fine that the warranty shorter than 9 years. Even, if I agree that 2 years (as is common) is too short.

The question I ask straight back at you: how long do you think an oven should last?

cornel_io 2y ago

9 years is a lot to expect it to be under warranty...

baq 2y ago
Apparently not in Australia.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Well there was no court case. Considering the cost of sending a lawyer attend the hearing and the potential risk of creating a precedent, it may simpler and cheaper to send an engineer when someone complains too loudly...
  - promiseofbeans 2y ago
    There is already a precedent - the law. These go to court all the time, and the consumer almost always wins, hence why the companies want to avoid the lawyer fees, since they know they'll lose.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      The law is not a precedent. The law is generic and courts deal with specifics.
      - sitharus 2y ago
        These cases do not go to court, they go to a tribunal. They are not heard by a judge (or at least a judge in their capacity as a court justice) and the results are not entered as judicial cases and do not set precedent. It’s designed so a lay person can represent themselves without having to understand the justice system. I know in New South Wales companies have to apply for special leave to have a lawyer represent them, and they need to supply a reason why. In New Zealand lawyers are not allowed in the tribunal, a company must be represented by a manager.
        mytailorisrich 2y ago
        That's details on this specific process but does not change the boarder point...
  - baq 2y ago
    That's the point. If customers don't complain strongly enough, the manufacturer is incentivized to develop products prone to malfunction. If the cost of malfunction is raised, the incentives change. If they got invited to a hundred cases at the same time, they'd send a lawyer and perhaps even would tweak the design to include some extra $1 parts which actually work.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      It's a trade-off. People don't want appliances that break down after a few years but they also want cheap appliances... In this case it seems to boil down to: "In the end he replaced the light bulb (which hadn't worked for years, we hadn't bothered replacing it) and the message had gone away anyway."... i.e. the guy could have replaced the light bulb when it broke and perhaps nothing would have happened in the first place. So this article comes across as complaining too much, frankly.
      - baq 2y ago
        and the next day the error came back and ultimately something else had to be replaced. a failed bulb could result in a 'please change the bulb before the rest of me breaks' on the display, too.
shermozle 2y ago
But the flip of that is that if the manufacturer doesn't think it'll work longer than 2 years, that needs to be disclosed forcefully at sale time.
- cbmuser 2y ago
  It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. Who knows, maybe the author has been using the oven excessively or never cleaned it etc. So far, we‘ve heard one side only.
  - Redneck-Tech 2y ago
    Ninety percent of manufactured goods are ultimately trash, pride in craftsmanship has gone by the wayside. Things are shoved through production with little to no f*cks given in regards to quality, if the S.O.B is just a gnats ass within tolerance, just send it, and pump out as many more as you can because we have quotas and due dates to meet.
  - okanat 2y ago
    > It‘s extremely difficult to predict the lifetime of a consumer product as it also depends on how it’s being used. That's actually false. Almost all of the engineered goods are engineered to a certain lifetime. Usually companies have internal endurance testing results for every item. The ones who care about will release their expectations.
memen 2y ago
Warranty is not the same as reasonable expected lifetime. Under warranty, the burden of proof is at the manufacturers side. The 2 years is typical for electric appliances, but it is from jurisprudence only. The law actually states that it should last as long as can reasonably expected. Intentionally vague, but yes, I would expect an oven to last longer than 2 years! In fact, we should be able to build ovens that last a lifetime. And not only ovens, there are many appliances and gear that can easily be made to last a lifetime, except for some wearing parts. However, many companies that did this were competed to bankruptcy by cheap low quality competing products. With the abundance of low(er) quality products, we tend to expect a shorter lifetime.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  I recently replaced an element on our oven. It's 5 years old. Honestly, if manufacturers could make some of that stuff standardised I'd be quite happy to replace or pay to have them replaced. As it happens there are thousands of different shapes of "heating elements shaped to go around the fan". Same with the brushes in our washing machine I changed a while back. Finding the right replacement took more work than actually doing the replacing.
MaxikCZ 2y ago
Yea I too want to be replacing every appliance in my home at least every 4 years. Thats a healthy way to live for sure. /s
promiseofbeans 2y ago
I think you've been conditioned by anti-consumer companies who want you to BUY BUY BUY to expect that. Ovens should last 20 years or more, and if you're sold a faulty product, it's fair to expect it to be fixed. Luckily there are still a few countries at the bottom of the world with good consumer legislation.
- cbmuser 2y ago
  You do realize that in the end the manufacturers will just increase prices or move production to low-wage countries, no?
  - graemep 2y ago
    How will moving production to low wage countries help? The importer and/or the retailer still have to comply with the law of the country they sell in. The only exception is when people buy from a foreign retailer online. However that is a problem regardless of where the retailer is as long as they are not in your country. My daughter (in the UK) currently has a problem with Boox (in the EU) refusing to replace a product that was delivered with a faulty screen claiming that she must have damaged it.
    - gpderetta 2y ago
      Did she pay with credit card? Often even debit cards offer chargeback although it is not a statutory right.
      - graemep 2y ago
        Yes she did but left it rather long for a section 75 because she was busy. Probably going to try that now.
  - promiseofbeans 2y ago
    They're already doing that, so you may as well exercise your rights (and help the environment at the same time).

Jamie9912 2y ago

In my opinion, maybe 20 years at the very least

arp242 2y ago

This is an interesting question; Netherlands has a similar law, and the general guidelines for stuff like ovens is, depending on the purchase price: ≤ € 199 2 years € 200 - 299 3 years € 300 - 399 4 years € 400 - 499 5 years € 500 - 599 6 years € 600 - 699 7 years ≥ € 700 8 years Note these are just guidelines and not fixed rules. On one hand this seems rather short to me, on the other hand, it's kind of a "you get what you pay for" affair. I don't really know what profit margins manufacturers have, but when I worked for a store profit margins for us really weren't all that big for us (and also didn't scale as much with price as many people assume).

bzzzt 2y ago
Note that this doesn't mean you get 8 years of warranty on an expensive oven. Just that if it fails in 4 years you still can claim 50% of the purchase price.
- Denvercoder9 2y ago
  This is not true. You have the right to a "deugdelijk product" (good product) for the entire expected lifespan of the product, and if it breaks in that, they do have to fix it (or provide a comparable replacement). If, however, for whatever reason you don't want that, you can't demand all your money back, but only 50%. That's only if you agree to the money though, the seller can't unilaterally choose to give you 50% back instead of repairing it.
Denvercoder9 2y ago
Note that this table comes from "Techniek Nederland", which is a business association of (among others) technical retailers. They've an interest in lowering the expected lifespan of appliances, as that means their members have less warranty to provide. They actually note (probably for legal reasons) along with their table that it contains average usage, not expected lifespan (i.e. how long people use things before they replace it, as opposed to how long you could use it before it breaks). Courts will, and have in the past, throw this table out, if you make a reasonable argument why you could expect a longer lifespan.

jopsen 2y ago

> how long do you think an oven should last? 30 years :) But I actually think it's fine that the warranty shorter than 9 years. Even, if I agree that 2 years (as is common) is too short.