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Horses may have been domesticated twice
- j0hngalt 2y ago[dead]
- jojobas 2y agoI wonder what alternative history paths were there if the Clovis people figured out how to domesticate the horse in North America. Too bad they had other plans.
- chroma 2y agoAgriculture is almost certainly a prerequisite to domesticating horses (as they must be selectively bred in captivity), so hunter-gatherer tribes like the Clovis never had a chance to do so.
- jojobas 2y agoIs it? There were plenty of nomadic tribes dealing with various livestock, horses included, without agriculture.
- Ekaros 2y agoNow one could ask question is that process itself a form of agriculture? And that in these cases agriculture and domestication happened together.
- aksss 2y agoI think it's the other way, right? ..That farming/agr and livestock are both examples of domestication (of plants and animals). The root of the word "agriculture" is specific to plants (ager, agr = fields).
- chroma 2y agoThey got those domesticated breeds from agricultural societies. The only example of an animal domesticated by hunter-gatherers is the dog.
- orwin 2y agoSorry, I don't think you can say nomads or semi-nomad got any of their five snout from agricultural societies, there is no proof of that. Especially since most of those agricultural society got their law and political organizations from nomads (Turkish 'torük', ancestral law, while influenced by Islam, is definitely from Gotürks' 'türük' which was at the time likely already thousand of years old). Rus political system was also heavily influenced, if not copied from the horde (or rather, the 'ordo', since our vision of what is a horde is now so wrong it isn't funny). You have to know that the political organization of central Asia nomads stayed stable from before the Xiongnu until the 19ty century, and their administration was as good, if not better than the Ottoman one until cheaper method of making paper was found in the 15th century.
- jojobas 2y agoNot necessarily true. The jury is out on that.
- Tor3 2y agoDomestic reindeer (which, in Europe, is all of them - except for a small non-domesticated group in the southern mountains of Norway, and the Svalbard reindeer). Domestic reindeer were domesticated by a nomadic people, or at least not an agricultural one. When that's said, they don't look "tame" like cows or sheep, but on the other hand anyone who's been involved with bringing in sheep which have spent the whole summer by themselves in the mountains will want to discuss how "tame" sheep can be.. (source: Myself, as a child I joined in the "hunt" every September for many years to help collect my grandfather's sheep)
- 082349872349872 2y agoPickets and hobbles are things; they don't require settlements. EDIT: I'm an idiot, there are two even simpler things: Shish kebab is a thing; it doesn't require settlements. When it comes time to sacrifice, are you more likely to eat the individual who's easy too get along with, or the ornery one? Rocky Mountain Oysters are things; they don't require settlements. Hence the tripartite nature of Indo-European gender: Bull/Cow/Ox, Stallion/Mare/Gelding, Ram/Ewe/Wether, etc.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoYou're replying to an article about the Botai, whose sites lack evidence for domesticated crops like other early horse cultures.
- azmodeus 2y agoA nomadic horse based society like the Magyars can def selectively breed horses
- chroma 2y agoHorses were domesticated long before the Magyars showed up. It’s much easier to selectively breed horses if you start with domesticated ones.
- linearrust 2y agoHorses were domesticated thousands of years prior to the development of agriculture.
- tzs 2y agoOther way around. Horse domestication was around 5000 years ago. Agriculture started around 12000 years ago and by around 8000 years ago had spread pretty widely.
- Animats 2y agoNothing to domesticate in that period. Horses were introduced to North America by the Cortez expedition of 1519. The pedigrees of those horses are known. The Cortez expedition was launched by a government and the paperwork still exists. They were good Andalusians. So North American wild horses were descended from good lines of riding animals. They didn't start out feral.
- jojobas 2y agoEquines roamed North America for millions of years before Cortez and were extinct ~10k years ago, most likely by human hunting, together with the mammoth and other species.
- aksss 2y ago"Multiple factors including hunting by early Natives, climate change, and disease are thought to have helped contribute to their demise. They disappeared around the same time as other large mammals like Wooly Mammoths." https://web.archive.org/web/20140819083344/http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/Magazine/ma05/indepth/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140819083344/http://www.canadi...
- jmcmaster 2y agoHorses evolved in North America, and disappear from the fossil record along with other megafauna about 10,000 years ago. Clovis people almost certainly interacted with horses, but likely as food.
- colechristensen 2y agoThe whole genus is supposed to have evolved in North America. Horses or very closely related species went extinct in NA somewhere between 6000-10000 BC and definitely existed alongside humans. It would not be at all surprising if human hunting contributed to their extinction.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- teruakohatu 2y agoI know nothing about horses, but I have always wondered how domesticated they are. It seems they are quite happy to live in the wild and require a fair bit of breaking in. Compared to sheep, cattle and dogs, they seem more on the wild side of spectrum than other domestic animals.
- cjbgkagh 2y agoBreaking-in is the traditional approach. Horse whisperer style is more effective and takes better advantage of the horses domestic nature. It’s a spectrum, some cattle breeds are pretty wild. Dogs are special. One good measure of domestication would be to compare with zebras which are considered relatively untamable - as in unlike horses they’ll always maintain a violent streak. Ponies tend to be more violent than horses.
- suzzer99 2y agoZebras have a tendency to bite the face and not let go. Definitely not ideal for domestication.
- usrnm 2y agoAnd wolves are ideal?
- fooker 2y agoYes, wolves are pretty intelligent and social compared to zebras. They understood the core concept of ‘do not bite the hand that feeds you’ instinctively.
- vintermann 2y agoZebras understood the concept that "this guy can out-think you. If you behave predictably, you'll regret it. If you behave unpredictably, he may regret it too." There's this theory that's why there are so few domesticable animals in Africa: that they co-evolved with humans, and the ones who behaved predictably and weren't willing to randomly hurt you for no apparent reason at their own expense, were eaten by our ancestors.
- Log_out_ 2y agoAnother interesting tidbit, cows may have domesticated themselves. We can see here in Europe where the wulfes are returning a phenomenon, were deer starts to hug civilization, to have one predator (us) scare away another. Deer self domesticated long enough may as we'll be called cows.
- CSMastermind 2y agoI believe the prevailing theory is that dogs are self-domesticated as well.
- surfingdino 2y agoI've heard cats couldn't be bothered so they made humans serve them instead /s
- robertlagrant 2y agoCats are credited with domesticating humans.
- agnosticmantis 2y agoI’m guessing it was the second attempt that really stuck.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- stareatgoats 2y agoThe rapid expansion of the Yamnaya across much of the Eurasian continent in the millennia leading up to the historic era is still not fully understood, or has at least not reached consensus. If horses were not the reason, what then? The reasons are probably several, but the evidence is mounting that the causes were primarily cultural: a warring people with conquest engrained in their cultural DNA, a glimpse of which we still have in the cultural practices and documented beliefs of the Vikings, among other Indo-European peoples. Incidentally, they were largely the "race" that the Nazis identified with as the "master race" which has probably complicated this type of research to some extent.
- singularity2001 2y agobull carts
- _yy01 2y agoIt's all of them - horse, war chariot, aggression, lactose tolerance. Even the oldest books of Rigveda [1] mention "Two bay steeds of Indra". That would be 3500 years old - and they had crossed the Indus by then (if steppe theory is to be believed).
- CRConrad 2y ago> If horses were not the reason, what then? They spread what, 5000 km in a couple centuries? You can walk that in a few months, no horses necessary.
- nonick 2y agoYou can walk that much if you are healthy, have roads, have enough food and water, good clothing and shoes, there are no dangers that must be avoided and if you know what your destination is. If you have to stop daily to get food (hunting or gathering fruit), avoid or fight dangerous people and animals, figure out best ways to get along while carying whaterver possesions they had, shelter from bad weather, prospect for places to settle permanently or temporarily then it's a completely different story. It's also not like they had a deadline or something.
- hoseja 2y ago>For instance, ancient people from southwest Asia known as the Yamnaya... They really hate saying it, don't they.
- Acrobatic_Road 2y agowe can't technically call them that. Some of their successors, sure.
- randomtoast 2y agoThe domestication of horses was not a single event, but a long, drawn-out process that took place over several thousand years. According to Occam's razor, it is very unlikely that it happened twice in history. I do not question the stated DNA method, but I do question the conclusion drawn here. There might be a link between the two domestications (if two or more have actually occurred) that hasn't been discovered yet.
- CuriouslyC 2y agoI don't believe that. How hard is it to capture baby horses, it would happen naturally hunting their parents. Horses bond decently with people and if captured and socialized heavily by the tribe from a young age I have no doubt first generation wild horses would be rideable and could be bred.
- Amezarak 2y agoYes, but the ability to bond decently with people may be a trait that was bred into them during the early domestication process.
- CuriouslyC 2y agoWild horses run in herds, I think they're naturally social. If anything, it takes less work now - ranchers can ride horses that get very limited human contact, but the I image first generation tamed horses must have required a lot of socialization.
- oblio 2y agoI'm fairly sure that not only are they social, their society is hierarchical, which would make it easier for them to accept humans as "top horses".
- dontlikeyoueith 2y agoFeral horses run in herds. They are descended from animals that were already bred for domestication. You are confusing cause and effect. Wild horses are extinct.
- Jeff_Brown 2y agoIt all seems so unfathomable to me. Even plants! Wild almonds will kill you with cyanide. Even domesticated horses are scary as hell -- what would they have been like before that? Domestic goats can kill big men -- my uncle (huge, muscly, outdoorsy blue collar guy) almost got rammed to death by one. The only instance of donestication I really get are cats.
- ElCapitanMarkla 2y agoAnd even then I think it’s more a case that cats domesticated people
- Grimblewald 2y agoHumans have co-domesticated along side everything else. We are less scary now as well.
- awesomeideas 2y agoAre we? We kill billions/trillions of other beings per year, far more per person than we did 300 ka ago when we came onto the scene.
- 4gotunameagain 2y agoThe powerhungry warmongers are certainly scary, but think of the average contemporary westerner and then imagine the average Spartan.. We are fat, with hunched backs, stiff necks and wearing glasses.
- CRConrad 2y agoAnother Science News article(1), linked from TFA IIRC, says we are: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/gene-facial-development-hints-humans-domesticated-themselves https://www.sciencenews.org/article/gene-facial-development-... ___ (1) Plus another one linked from that: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-humans-maybe-domesticated-themselves https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-humans-maybe-domesti...
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- complianceowl 2y ago[flagged]
- aksss 2y agoThere is a great book called "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" by David Anthony, and in Chapter 10 he goes into some depth about horse domestication. https://archive.org/details/horsewheelandlanguage/page/192/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/horsewheelandlanguage/page/192/m... I suppose as it relates to this article, the author points out that: 1) "Earliest evidence for possible horse domestication...appeared after 4800 BCE". This evidence comes mostly from cultural artifacts representing the horse, I believe. 2) Looking for physical evidence of domestication is very difficult, but two methods of debatable applicability to horses - size variability and age at death - seems to indicate 2800 BCE and more recent than 3000 BCE, respectively. 3) Evidence of bit wear in teeth provides evidence of horse-riding, which is assumed to post-date horse domestication. Bit wear is evident in teeth whether hard (metal) or soft (leather, hair) bits are used. That evidence pretty conclusively indicates that horse-riding goes back at least until 3700-3500BCE. Domestication of horses (herding) is presumed to predate this by at least another 500 years. 4) To the topic of riding coming after domestication: "What was the incentive to tame wild horses if people already had cattle and sheep? Was it for transportation? Almost certainly not. Horses were large, powerful, aggressive animals, more inclined to flee or fight than to carry a human. Riding probably developed only after horses were already familiar as domesticated animals that could be controlled. The initial incentive probably was the desire for a cheap source of winter meat." The author points out that unlike cattle, horses are able to forage in the winter on their own, making them extremely valuable as livestock for primary and secondary products. Point 4 is in opposition to this article, and demonstrates the idea championed by the article (horses domesticated for speedy human transport) is not new, per se, but since this article post-dates the book, it should be read as perhaps bringing new evidence to the table for that theory.