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Work is hard and stressful. If we're sweet and kind to one-another, we get through it more easily, no matter how smart each of us is individually. Being kind is

Work is hard and stressful. If we're sweet and kind to one-another, we get through it more easily, no matter how smart each of us is individually. Being kind is an investment, and its dividends pay out enormously as your organization grows. Like the article says, it's infectious. I believe that. I believe that if I show kindness, especially to people who are new to the organization, they'll mirror it right back, and try to show it to everyone else, too.

ttoinou 2y ago
So you want to be kind only for utilitarian motives, not because it’s a good thing in principle ?
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  What does it mean for a thing to be good in principle?
  - glenstein 2y ago
    I don't understand why they got down voted because this question has a rather obvious answer. Do you motivate a person to behave a specific way because it's instrumentally good for a higher purpose, or because the behavior itself is inherently valuable? That's a perfectly coherent, it makes a real distinction, and it's a legitimate question in this context.
- alojzmi 2y ago
  [flagged]
- guy4261 2y ago
  Good that does not sustain itself is quite sad - you can see the efforts going down the drain. Aligning good and sustainable (utilitarian) is worthwhile imho.
- OmarShehata 2y ago
  fun experiment: let's try to have the most charitable interpretation of this comment ^ My best is: they are saying it is worth taking a step back and making a prioritized list of our values. If we do this, we may place "being kind" over "being productive" I think their warning here is about: what happens in a situation where being kind is NOT productive? Will you just drop it? I think I agree with the broad strokes of this. My rebuttal is: the comment above this was just pointing out, for people who do not value kindness over productivity, that they are not in opposition. That you don't have to pick one or the other. You can have both. We can get mad and turn away from people who do not share our values/priorities. Or we can show them ways that our value systems do not clash and it can be win win
  - ttoinou 2y ago
    Great sum up ! You can have both, but for me being productive is more important than not offending others
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  It sounds like you're saying it's far better to be kind for altruistic reasons. Is that right? Some persons (me included) suspect that humans rarely if ever act with true altruism; that it's actually a nicely dressed up form of self-serving hedonism. And so for us, the challenge becomes how to get ourselves to act good / kind despite that. One way is to find ways to intentionally tie kind behavior to our own self-interest.
  - beepbooptheory 2y ago
    gp is refering to a morality that is deontologically grounded, not just one based on altruism. Here it is not necessarily for one "reason" or the other, but rather acting the way some ideal person would in a perfect world (famously for Kant within the "kingdom of ends" where every person is an "end to themselves"). It's a rather huge theoretical distinction that at least in the West goes all the way back! In general, one shouldn't confuse ethics itself with the whatever one might think is the most viable ethical system! It isnt a product to market. Utilitarianism is no less silly the anything else, and has its own ridiculous edge cases and all that.
    - CoastalCoder 2y ago
      Thanks for introducing me to the concept of deontological ethics! It's been fascinating to read up on something about which my thoughts were only half-formed.
- alluro2 2y ago
  That's not a very kind interpretation of the parent comment - a bit reductionist, don't you think? I personally don't believe it's possible to "give out" kindness, compassion, friendship solely from an utilitarian position. It would either be fake, and people feel the difference and the desired effect does not follow, or your utilitarian position is a front, in order to justify being kind to unkind people around you judging you.
- mydriasis 2y ago
  No.
flatline 2y ago
Sweetness and kindness are not necessarily the same thing. Just like how “nice” can be a toxic trait. His list of points is fine. It’s mostly the servant leadership mentality, which I’m all for. But sometimes to be an effective leader you have to make hard decisions. You’ve got to know your personal boundaries and know when to yield and when to hold them, or other less sweet people are going to steamrolling you, or you’re going to get overloaded by taking on too much, etc. And sometimes you have to be direct and blunt and not so sweet to show true kindness. Confrontation is hard and it’s not something most people really want, but I believe it’s sometimes necessary to embody kindness. For yourself, your teammates, the customer, the organization. Because at the end of the day if you are not effective, that’s going to hurt everyone.
mgaunard 2y ago
Will you be kind as well to the people who repeatedly fuck up and don't care about delivering good processes or products?
- Kye 2y ago
  What would being unkind accomplish here?
  - chupy 2y ago
    What would be kind accomplish there?
    - andrewshadura 2y ago
      Not make things worse, for example? Or maybe it can help convey the message across and make things better?
    - antisthenes 2y ago
      Not being an asshole in your own eyes. If that's not worth anything to you, then Idk, guess we live on different planets.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - thih9 2y ago
    It's not about being unkind, it's about not being kind; these are not the same. Being kind to a person that behaves as described in the grandparent comment could communicate that you find this kind of behavior helpful. Fine if that's really the case; problematic for everyone if not.
    - Kye 2y ago
      Kindness and enabling are also not the same thing. This entire discussion needs to come to a screeching halt while people get together and hammer out some definitions. It's clear we're all working from different and contradictory assumptions about what these words mean.
anal_reactor 2y ago
I love reading discussions of people to whom following the social norms comes naturally and they can't fathom the idea that behaving in a way that makes other people feel good is something I need to consciously put effort into.
- mydriasis 2y ago
  It also requires conscious effort for me. It takes a lot of energy, but like a lot of things, the more I do it, the easier it becomes.
- callmeal 2y ago
  >I love reading discussions of people to whom following the social norms comes naturally and they can't fathom the idea that behaving in a way that makes other people feel good is something I need to consciously put effort into. It takes less effort, becomes easier, and in time will come naturally to you as well.
jorisboris 2y ago
Sad to say that my experience is exactly opposite When I’m kind to people, especially in other departments, they don’t mirror it: they’re stressed, they’re pressured by their boss or it’s just not the culture of that department… even after months of cooperation
demondemidi 2y ago
Exactly! When I look forward to working with people, we get more done and I don't come home burned out and discouraged. Even if the work is hard, at least you are in it together.
atmavatar 2y ago
You have to be careful, though: there is no shortage of people who will happily take advantage of someone who shows them kindness. While I believe you should show a baseline level of kindness to people when you first meet them much like you should give people a baseline level of respect, there are actions which can and should lose both.
eleveriven 2y ago
Kindness fosters a sense of trust and camaraderie among team members

ttoinou 2y ago

So you want to be kind only for utilitarian motives, not because it’s a good thing in principle ?

bitshiftfaced 2y ago
What does it mean for a thing to be good in principle?
- glenstein 2y ago
  I don't understand why they got down voted because this question has a rather obvious answer. Do you motivate a person to behave a specific way because it's instrumentally good for a higher purpose, or because the behavior itself is inherently valuable? That's a perfectly coherent, it makes a real distinction, and it's a legitimate question in this context.
alojzmi 2y ago
[flagged]
guy4261 2y ago
Good that does not sustain itself is quite sad - you can see the efforts going down the drain. Aligning good and sustainable (utilitarian) is worthwhile imho.
OmarShehata 2y ago
fun experiment: let's try to have the most charitable interpretation of this comment ^ My best is: they are saying it is worth taking a step back and making a prioritized list of our values. If we do this, we may place "being kind" over "being productive" I think their warning here is about: what happens in a situation where being kind is NOT productive? Will you just drop it? I think I agree with the broad strokes of this. My rebuttal is: the comment above this was just pointing out, for people who do not value kindness over productivity, that they are not in opposition. That you don't have to pick one or the other. You can have both. We can get mad and turn away from people who do not share our values/priorities. Or we can show them ways that our value systems do not clash and it can be win win
- ttoinou 2y ago
  Great sum up ! You can have both, but for me being productive is more important than not offending others
CoastalCoder 2y ago
It sounds like you're saying it's far better to be kind for altruistic reasons. Is that right? Some persons (me included) suspect that humans rarely if ever act with true altruism; that it's actually a nicely dressed up form of self-serving hedonism. And so for us, the challenge becomes how to get ourselves to act good / kind despite that. One way is to find ways to intentionally tie kind behavior to our own self-interest.
- beepbooptheory 2y ago
  gp is refering to a morality that is deontologically grounded, not just one based on altruism. Here it is not necessarily for one "reason" or the other, but rather acting the way some ideal person would in a perfect world (famously for Kant within the "kingdom of ends" where every person is an "end to themselves"). It's a rather huge theoretical distinction that at least in the West goes all the way back! In general, one shouldn't confuse ethics itself with the whatever one might think is the most viable ethical system! It isnt a product to market. Utilitarianism is no less silly the anything else, and has its own ridiculous edge cases and all that.
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Thanks for introducing me to the concept of deontological ethics! It's been fascinating to read up on something about which my thoughts were only half-formed.
alluro2 2y ago
That's not a very kind interpretation of the parent comment - a bit reductionist, don't you think? I personally don't believe it's possible to "give out" kindness, compassion, friendship solely from an utilitarian position. It would either be fake, and people feel the difference and the desired effect does not follow, or your utilitarian position is a front, in order to justify being kind to unkind people around you judging you.
mydriasis 2y ago
No.

flatline 2y ago

Sweetness and kindness are not necessarily the same thing. Just like how “nice” can be a toxic trait. His list of points is fine. It’s mostly the servant leadership mentality, which I’m all for. But sometimes to be an effective leader you have to make hard decisions. You’ve got to know your personal boundaries and know when to yield and when to hold them, or other less sweet people are going to steamrolling you, or you’re going to get overloaded by taking on too much, etc. And sometimes you have to be direct and blunt and not so sweet to show true kindness. Confrontation is hard and it’s not something most people really want, but I believe it’s sometimes necessary to embody kindness. For yourself, your teammates, the customer, the organization. Because at the end of the day if you are not effective, that’s going to hurt everyone.

mgaunard 2y ago

Will you be kind as well to the people who repeatedly fuck up and don't care about delivering good processes or products?

Kye 2y ago
What would being unkind accomplish here?
- chupy 2y ago
  What would be kind accomplish there?
  - andrewshadura 2y ago
    Not make things worse, for example? Or maybe it can help convey the message across and make things better?
  - antisthenes 2y ago
    Not being an asshole in your own eyes. If that's not worth anything to you, then Idk, guess we live on different planets.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- thih9 2y ago
  It's not about being unkind, it's about not being kind; these are not the same. Being kind to a person that behaves as described in the grandparent comment could communicate that you find this kind of behavior helpful. Fine if that's really the case; problematic for everyone if not.
  - Kye 2y ago
    Kindness and enabling are also not the same thing. This entire discussion needs to come to a screeching halt while people get together and hammer out some definitions. It's clear we're all working from different and contradictory assumptions about what these words mean.

anal_reactor 2y ago

I love reading discussions of people to whom following the social norms comes naturally and they can't fathom the idea that behaving in a way that makes other people feel good is something I need to consciously put effort into.

mydriasis 2y ago
It also requires conscious effort for me. It takes a lot of energy, but like a lot of things, the more I do it, the easier it becomes.
callmeal 2y ago
>I love reading discussions of people to whom following the social norms comes naturally and they can't fathom the idea that behaving in a way that makes other people feel good is something I need to consciously put effort into. It takes less effort, becomes easier, and in time will come naturally to you as well.

jorisboris 2y ago

Sad to say that my experience is exactly opposite When I’m kind to people, especially in other departments, they don’t mirror it: they’re stressed, they’re pressured by their boss or it’s just not the culture of that department… even after months of cooperation

demondemidi 2y ago

Exactly! When I look forward to working with people, we get more done and I don't come home burned out and discouraged. Even if the work is hard, at least you are in it together.

atmavatar 2y ago

You have to be careful, though: there is no shortage of people who will happily take advantage of someone who shows them kindness. While I believe you should show a baseline level of kindness to people when you first meet them much like you should give people a baseline level of respect, there are actions which can and should lose both.

eleveriven 2y ago

Kindness fosters a sense of trust and camaraderie among team members