7 ms·

How much of that cost is related to the physical handling of the panels themselves, and not the electrical installation, though? Weight reduction isn't going to

• mensetmanusman 2y ago
  It’s propagates through the supply chain, loading, logistics, wear on vehicle transport etc. We should practically get to the point where someone can buy a roll of material at Home Depot and unravel it on their roof, nail it, and plug it in themselves.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • lompad 2y ago
    The currents and voltages involved are going to make that a non-starter. Do you really want random people messing with those? The solar inverters are also sized that big for a reason. At least in countries with strong regulations around working with electricity this is simply not going to be feasible. I've been in the PV business for some time now and seen a person get killed by it. It's not pretty. Still remembering that smell of burnt flesh... Now, to be fair, that was at a 12MW-installation, not on a roof. But still...
    • thechao 2y ago
      Jay Leno talks about installing solar on his house (which he did himself) and commenting that he was getting shocked a lot, bc as soon as the PVs are in the sun, they're making electricity. He said it made handling the units tricky.
      • ethbr1 2y ago
        Stupid question I've been curious about. What happens to a PV panel, receiving sunlight, with no load? Does it degrade or suffer ill effects in any meaningful way? Or does it just have a potential between its outputs but otherwise isn't impacted?
        • lompad 2y ago
          A small current is going to flow internally, but nothing else happens. It's quite normal to have solar panels running with zero load in regions with lots of PV - reason being, that the carriers need to keep their electricity nets stable and have to carefully balance electricity entering and leaving the net. At least in Germany, every PV installation of certain size (> 30kW peak) is mandated to be able to be shutdown remotely by the carrier if you supply electricity for the net and aren't just using it for yourself. (You get paid the same during shutdowns, just like it were running. Otherwise it would be quite damaging and likely reduce adoption of PV) Point being: no, it doesn't hurt the panels and is a regular ocurence.
        • antisthenes 2y ago
          The generated power will be dissipated through the panel as heat, AFAIK. Which means that in winter, probably nothing, because it's cold, but on a hot summer day with peak sun, the heat might start damaging the cells. How much exactly you'd have to look at studies. My guess is the output will permanently degrade by a few % per year if the panel is not connected. Might go down to 80% way quicker than normal (25-yr)
          • addaon 2y ago
            > The generated power will be dissipated through the panel as heat, AFAIK. Solar panels are not constant-power devices. In an open circuit, they will generate their open circuit voltage at nearly zero current (except minor internal leakage), and thus nearly zero power. In a short circuit, they will generate nearly zero voltage, and thus also nearly zero power. To get maximum power out of a solar panel requires maximum power-point tracking (MPPT), where the load is adjusted such that the product of voltage and current (that is, power) is optimized for the current conditions; while significant power can be delivered to a fixed load, there's no real power being generated without a load.
            • CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
              Where's the power going to then? Either it's heating the panels or it's reflected back, no?
      • cwalv 2y ago
        Really? Couldn't you just tape a piece of cardboard over it?
      • ragebol 2y ago
        I installed an additional 12 505Wp panels by myself last weekend, the panels came with MC4 connectors installed which is pretty standard I think. Hard to get zapped by solar DC juice that way. BTW: installing solar panels DIY is apparently super easy, as I found out. I have a flat roof and used micro inverters, to make it easier, but I was done in less than a day (excluding selecting the components and layout)
      • weaksauce 2y ago
        if it were really a problem moving forward and diy becomes the norm(which i doubt is the case) it's pretty trivial to apply an opaque sticker or cardboard covering to the panel during manufacture.
        • hughesjj 2y ago
          I've already gotten smaller solar panels in shrinkwrap, I could easily see it becoming standard to package it in a scratch proof blackout layer
      • ChainOfFools 2y ago
        Why can't they just be covered with blackout film until they're ready to be activated?
        • snypher 2y ago
          I just left mine half in the packaging, but I'm not Jay Leno.
          • bee_rider 2y ago
            He got a funny story out of it, maybe he could write them off as a work expense.
        • SoftTalker 2y ago
          Or have interconnecting cables, plugs, and sockets that are designed to prevent you from touching the conductors. Yeah you could probably still shock yourself but you'd bascially have to be trying to do it.
      • grecy 2y ago
        That... makes no sense. I just installed 7.3Kw on my roof, and another 600W on the roof of my Jeep. You'd have to physically stick a screwdriver into an MC-4 connector to get zapped, which is as smart as sticking one into an electrical outlet. I don't even understand how you could get zapped plugging in MC-4 connectors.... like, at all.
      • triceratops 2y ago
        Do you have a link to that video? I've never thought of Leno as a particular handy guy so it sounds fascinating.
        • grecy 2y ago
          Also I can't imagine him up on a roof. He's 74 and not a pillar of health and fitness.
          • triceratops 2y ago
            I doubt this interview was last week. It might have been 10 years ago.
    • roughly 2y ago
      > The currents and voltages involved are going to make that a non-starter. Do you really want random people messing with those? As part of our daily lives, a great many of us climb into a steel box powered by explosions and packing a 20 gallon container of flammable liquids (and increasingly several hundred pounds of also flammable batteries containing more electricity than an average family uses in a week) and then pilot that box at 80Mph down a strip of concrete packed with other large high-speed objects containing flammable liquids. Occasionally, we run low on flammable liquids in our high-speed metal box and get to refill the flammable liquid container ourselves at a flammable liquids depot, which contains upwards of 40,000 gallons of the flammable liquid delivered by other larger high-speed metal boxes which also share the same strip of concrete with us. So: I'd expect some product safety iteration here before we get to the "roll out your own solar panels", but no, I don't consider that a non-starter.
      • szvsw 2y ago
        To be fair, it didn’t start that way and there are decades of design, legislation and safety regulations around all this, along with infrastructure for licensing/certifying capabilities, tracking and policing capabilities and mistakes over time, insurance, yada yada. It’s not like that stuff springs up overnight!
      • exe34 2y ago
        the safety of these steel boxes were bought with blood over a hundred years. and the end user doesn't just cut as much as they need and nail it down - the things are practically disposable appliances at this point.
      • lompad 2y ago
        But you can see fuel. You can't see currents and it's not trivially visible which things you can touch at all, which things you can touch at the same time, which protection to wear, how to deal with the potentially fatal flashing arcs, ... PV installations on roofs typically have around 10-20kW peak output. Let's go with 10kW. That's around 25 panels, each outputting 30V with something like 13A. Small installations are typically single-stringed, so you end up with a voltage of 25*30V=750V with 13A DC. That's pretty likely to kill you within milliseconds if you mess up. There's a reason that stuff tends to be handled by professionals. It's a ridiculous (and pointless) risk if you aren't well educated about it and have some experience.
    • malfist 2y ago
      Homeowners work with 240v and tens of amps all the time across the country. Hell I wired a hot tub breaker panel and a car charger. Safe enough interlocks and it's a non issue
      • lompad 2y ago
        And houses are burning and people are being electrocuted regularly - being not only a hazard for themselves but also their entire neighbourhood. I certainly wouldn't want to live next to somebody who thinks they can handle their electricity installation by themselves.
        • malfist 2y ago
          I doubt running a circuit for a hot tub is endangering the entire neighborhood
      • quickthrowman 2y ago
        I would rather be zapped with a 240v AC current vs 240v DC current. AC power crosses the zero line twice per cycle while DC does not. AC has a lower ‘let-go’ threshold, but DC contracts your muscles and makes it harder to let go. You are correct though, if you de-energize your panelboard and have a deadfront cover over the line side conductors and lugs, working inside a panelboard (or on electrical wiring) is safe.
        • lompad 2y ago
          DC interferes with your heart's rhythm much, much less though, due to being constant. AC's frequency easily causes ventricular fibrillations even at low currents and voltages. AC is considered potentially lethal starting at 50V. For DC it's 120V, because it's significantly easier on your heart.
          • bradknowles 2y ago
            It’s the amperage that kills you, not the voltage. 5000VAC at a 1.0 nano amps is not going to be something you can feel, not even as something like static electricity.
    • ben_w 2y ago
      I'm in Germany, our local discount retailers sell PV for apartment balconies as DIY systems — "Plug and play", even. If Lidl can do it, why can't Walmart? https://www.lidl.de/p/vale-balkonkraftwerk-minipv-800-et8-l-830-wp-full-black-2x-415-w-solarmodul/p100377336 https://www.lidl.de/p/vale-balkonkraftwerk-minipv-800-et8-l-...
      • lompad 2y ago
        They're limited to pretty small sizes by german law - they are so insignificant that they're much less dangerous to handle. I'm not up to date on their ROI, but IIR they usually were a rather bad investment and more of a novel toy than a serious and reliable source of electricity. Essentially, any notable installation fundamentally deals with much higher currents and voltages and as such is much, much more dangerous. Once a certain size is reached, the carrier also has to be involved and professional installation is mandatory, both due to the law and requirements by insurance companies. At least here in germany. I've been involved with building all kinds of PV installations in bavaria, from 4kwp up to 20MWp. The balkony generators aren't taken seriously by anybody in the industry right now, at least.
        • ben_w 2y ago
          > At least here in germany. I've been involved with building all kinds of PV installations in bavaria, from 4kwp up to 20MWp. The balkony generators aren't taken seriously by anybody in the industry right now, at least. If you're working at that size, I'd expect you to ignore balcony systems regardless of how cost-effective they were. My point here is simply and only that it's possible to make a system safe enough that an untrained and unskilled member of the general public can just plug it in and use it, which is exactly what was being called for up-thread with this: > We should practically get to the point where someone can buy a roll of material at Home Depot and unravel it on their roof, nail it, and plug it in themselves. Germany basically has that (even if it's not in the form of a roll); there's nothing fundamental preventing the USA from having it too.
      • dzhiurgis 2y ago
        This is 1/10th of what my house needs (and I'm not living outrageously AND far closer to equator than Germany)
    • forgetfreeman 2y ago
      Friendly Neighborhood Handyman checking in here. Average Home Depot customer? Absolutely not unless there's some plan to quadruple suburban emergency services budgets. On the other hand I get pretty tired of sneaking around local restrictions on electrical work. Residential electrical work isn't exactly complex and I can't devote a couple years to working as someone else's laborer to get a cert. I'm perfectly capable of handling 100% of a residential solar install (including battery backup) and it's aggravating af to have to go find an electrician to bribe to get permits and inspections.
      • throwaway173738 2y ago
        Around here you can buy a permit if you’re a homeowner. You then have to set up the inspections and actually do all the work properly, but there are no restrictions like that. The inspecting agency publishes documentation about what to read and common pitfalls even.
        • bcrosby95 2y ago
          Yes, this post seems to be by someone who wants to be paid to do this by a home owner. It's very common to need licensing to do something commercially but not when doing it for yourself.
          • forgetfreeman 2y ago
            I see how you'd think that but it isn't the case. Where I live only licensed electricians are allowed to do any work more involved than changing a light fixture. As an example I've got a 1600 square foot detached shop on property I recently purchased. There isn't six inches of wiring in the entire building that is up to code. My options are ignore it and risk a fire or electrocution, spend >$15,000 to get the building rewired, or spend $3,000 on materials and risk a life-altering fine and/or jailtime if I get caught fixing it myself. I'd be satisfied if I could simply sit the licensure exam and maybe have to pay extra to do some kind of practical demonstration. Local requirements for residential licensure include documented multi-year experience as an electrician's helper before you can even apply to take the exam.
    • logtempo 2y ago
      for an offgrid installation it's feasable to possible to have an idiot proof system. It rise the cost, but I don't see why it would be impossible. I actually saw one at a store (not for roof but anyway).
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]