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The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done

by ajross 2y ago

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents. What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothing else looks like titanium, nothing has the weight properties, even things like smells are different between metals that come out of different processes and tarnish in different ways. Basically by the time you got something that wouldn't be noticed by the assembly crews you'd have spent so much you might as well just have bought stolen titanium on the black market.

nickff 2y ago
It's also possible that they're using an alloy which is not easily detected, or that the titanium is in a part which was painted or otherwise coated before receipt by Spirit
- ajross 2y ago
  > an alloy which is not easily detected Seems implausible. Again, Ti is way out on the edge of properties, being intermediate between steel and aluminum in weight and stiffer than either. That alloy would be a pretty novel thing, and novel metallurgy is more expensive than the hot Titanium someone stole from a bomber graveyard in Siberia.
  - nickff 2y ago
    According to Wikipedia, Ti alloys are commercially available, and used in aviation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloys https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloys
  - dbuder 2y ago
    Asif they don't have a handheld XRF to check everything that comes off the truck, the concern is the quality.
  - Lio 2y ago
    Sorry but I don't think it's implausible at all. Outside of medical usage I think most commercial use of "titanium" is actually titanium alloys. I'm sure I read somewhere there's over 50 commercial grades so substituting one for another close but cheaper grade with forged paperwork is very plausible.
  - loeg 2y ago
    Titanium isn't stiffer than steel. It's around half as stiff. It is also about half as dense, so the strength-for-weight is somewhat better. But you need more of it to achieve the same strength.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bpodgursky 2y ago
It's likely laundered through China from Russia bypass avoid sanctions.
- braincat31415 2y ago
  Titanium is mostly not on the sanctioned list. In a few countries where is sanctioned (like Canada), exemptions are available.
- type0 2y ago
  https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-21/russia-war-titanium-west-sanctions-13384102.html https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-21/russia-wa...
CPLX 2y ago
The reason they found it is because it had suspicious physical properties.
- ajross 2y ago
  Not per the linked article. In fact Spirit goes so far as to claim they've done extensive testing to prove the material's airworthiness, which is pretty much a straight refutation. Are you reading from somewhere else?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - CPLX 2y ago
    It was corrosion inconsistent with the expected properties of the material. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boeing-airbus-holes-titanium-faa-b2562757.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boeing-air...
samatman 2y ago
Yes, this is clearly the case. The phrase "counterfeit titanium" doesn't even make sense, because something counterfeit has the wrong provenance, and the provenance of an alloy or element isn't a meaningful property. You could say "counterfeit Krugerrands", but "counterfeit gold" doesn't make sense. Now, it could be ersatz titanium, except that the article specifically says that it isn't: > Spirit added that “more than 1,000 tests have been completed to confirm the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the affected material to ensure continued airworthiness.” and > Boeing said in an emailed statement: "This industry-wide issue affects some shipments of titanium received by a limited set of suppliers, and tests performed to date have indicated that the correct titanium alloy was used." I agree with a sibling comment that this is probably about evading sanctions on Russian titanium, which is produced in such quantity that the US obtained it through intermediaries to build the SR-71 Blackbird. It's also possible that these are counterfeit titanium parts, as in, real titanium, but not from the source that the documents claim. The article doesn't make that clear one way or the other.
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40679599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40679599 - NYT article and discussion, archive link at the top > It's also possible that these are counterfeit titanium parts, as in, real titanium, but not from the source that the documents claim. The article doesn't make that clear one way or the other. The parts were made by Spirit (so not counterfeit) using the "counterfeit" titanium. Both articles are discussing the provenance of the titanium used by Spirit (and others, but this article focuses on Spirit), not the provenance of parts made of titanium.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > Russian titanium, which is produced in such quantity Russia is what, third on the list of countries by titanium production? [0] Japan produces more. China produces quite a lot more. It should not be -that- hard to avoid using Russian titanium. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_production_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_production_by_country
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal Metals come in various grades. That comes down to chemical purity, in case of commercially pure, and consistency, in case of alloys. But also crystal structure of the metal.
daniel_reetz 2y ago
>It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. No one is trying to pass aluminum or steel as titanium. It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, or claim provenance or material properties it doesn't have. I have two indistinguishable scrap pieces on my desk right now, one Grade 5 and one Grade 2. It's also possible to pass a billet or sheet of alloy with defects or poor quality control, voids, or inclusions. "Titanium" is a broad class of materials that are indistinguishable without exotic tools like XRF guns, or, in this case, a well documented and trusted supply chain. Alloy substitutions and similar fraud happen all the time. It can even be the same alloy but have issues in post treatment and not meet spec. Here's a case where a NASA supplier was committing this fraud for over 20 years. It included fraudulent documentation, but the material itself was not up to spec: https://www.sciencealert.com/a-supplier-was-delivering-faulty-aluminium-to-nasa-for-20-years-and-falsifying-their-reports https://www.sciencealert.com/a-supplier-was-delivering-fault...
- ajross 2y ago
  > It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, Sure, but per my actual point: characterizing the wrong alloy as "counterfeit titanium" is misleading, no? If I hand you a nickel when you expected a quarter, did I give you "counterfeit money"? No, I gave you the wrong thing. Cheating on material provenance is fraud. It's not "counterfeiting", and for a journalist to claim so is misleading spin. A counterfeit is something deliberately constructed in imitation of something else, it's not just a low grade substitute.
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    > A counterfeit is something deliberately constructed in imitation of something else, it's not just a low grade substitute. But what if the lower grade substitute was specifically produced with the goal in mind of passing it off as this other kind?
  - jdavis703 2y ago
    Spirit believed it was buying a specific, certified titanium alloy. Imagine the rabbis at Hebrew National were out sick, but Hebrew National continued churning out “Kosher hotdogs” that hadn’t been properly vetted. Sure it’s still a hotdog made with kosher ingredients. But it’s a major violation of trust. And trust is what consumers expect when flying.
lupusreal 2y ago
It's not spun, you're just being overly literal. They're not talking about pure elemental titanium, alloy is implicit here. And even if it were a matter of pure titanium, passing off an alloy as that would also make it counterfeit.

by ajross 2y ago

nickff 2y ago

It's also possible that they're using an alloy which is not easily detected, or that the titanium is in a part which was painted or otherwise coated before receipt by Spirit

ajross 2y ago
> an alloy which is not easily detected Seems implausible. Again, Ti is way out on the edge of properties, being intermediate between steel and aluminum in weight and stiffer than either. That alloy would be a pretty novel thing, and novel metallurgy is more expensive than the hot Titanium someone stole from a bomber graveyard in Siberia.
- nickff 2y ago
  According to Wikipedia, Ti alloys are commercially available, and used in aviation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloys https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloys
- dbuder 2y ago
  Asif they don't have a handheld XRF to check everything that comes off the truck, the concern is the quality.
- Lio 2y ago
  Sorry but I don't think it's implausible at all. Outside of medical usage I think most commercial use of "titanium" is actually titanium alloys. I'm sure I read somewhere there's over 50 commercial grades so substituting one for another close but cheaper grade with forged paperwork is very plausible.
- loeg 2y ago
  Titanium isn't stiffer than steel. It's around half as stiff. It is also about half as dense, so the strength-for-weight is somewhat better. But you need more of it to achieve the same strength.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bpodgursky 2y ago

It's likely laundered through China from Russia bypass avoid sanctions.

braincat31415 2y ago
Titanium is mostly not on the sanctioned list. In a few countries where is sanctioned (like Canada), exemptions are available.
type0 2y ago
https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-21/russia-war-titanium-west-sanctions-13384102.html https://www.stripes.com/theaters/europe/2024-03-21/russia-wa...

CPLX 2y ago

The reason they found it is because it had suspicious physical properties.

ajross 2y ago
Not per the linked article. In fact Spirit goes so far as to claim they've done extensive testing to prove the material's airworthiness, which is pretty much a straight refutation. Are you reading from somewhere else?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- CPLX 2y ago
  It was corrosion inconsistent with the expected properties of the material. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boeing-airbus-holes-titanium-faa-b2562757.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boeing-air...

samatman 2y ago

Yes, this is clearly the case. The phrase "counterfeit titanium" doesn't even make sense, because something counterfeit has the wrong provenance, and the provenance of an alloy or element isn't a meaningful property. You could say "counterfeit Krugerrands", but "counterfeit gold" doesn't make sense. Now, it could be ersatz titanium, except that the article specifically says that it isn't: > Spirit added that “more than 1,000 tests have been completed to confirm the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the affected material to ensure continued airworthiness.” and > Boeing said in an emailed statement: "This industry-wide issue affects some shipments of titanium received by a limited set of suppliers, and tests performed to date have indicated that the correct titanium alloy was used." I agree with a sibling comment that this is probably about evading sanctions on Russian titanium, which is produced in such quantity that the US obtained it through intermediaries to build the SR-71 Blackbird. It's also possible that these are counterfeit titanium parts, as in, real titanium, but not from the source that the documents claim. The article doesn't make that clear one way or the other.

Jtsummers 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40679599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40679599 - NYT article and discussion, archive link at the top > It's also possible that these are counterfeit titanium parts, as in, real titanium, but not from the source that the documents claim. The article doesn't make that clear one way or the other. The parts were made by Spirit (so not counterfeit) using the "counterfeit" titanium. Both articles are discussing the provenance of the titanium used by Spirit (and others, but this article focuses on Spirit), not the provenance of parts made of titanium.
rootusrootus 2y ago
> Russian titanium, which is produced in such quantity Russia is what, third on the list of countries by titanium production? [0] Japan produces more. China produces quite a lot more. It should not be -that- hard to avoid using Russian titanium. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_production_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_production_by_country
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal Metals come in various grades. That comes down to chemical purity, in case of commercially pure, and consistency, in case of alloys. But also crystal structure of the metal.

daniel_reetz 2y ago

>It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. No one is trying to pass aluminum or steel as titanium. It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, or claim provenance or material properties it doesn't have. I have two indistinguishable scrap pieces on my desk right now, one Grade 5 and one Grade 2. It's also possible to pass a billet or sheet of alloy with defects or poor quality control, voids, or inclusions. "Titanium" is a broad class of materials that are indistinguishable without exotic tools like XRF guns, or, in this case, a well documented and trusted supply chain. Alloy substitutions and similar fraud happen all the time. It can even be the same alloy but have issues in post treatment and not meet spec. Here's a case where a NASA supplier was committing this fraud for over 20 years. It included fraudulent documentation, but the material itself was not up to spec: https://www.sciencealert.com/a-supplier-was-delivering-faulty-aluminium-to-nasa-for-20-years-and-falsifying-their-reports https://www.sciencealert.com/a-supplier-was-delivering-fault...

ajross 2y ago
> It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, Sure, but per my actual point: characterizing the wrong alloy as "counterfeit titanium" is misleading, no? If I hand you a nickel when you expected a quarter, did I give you "counterfeit money"? No, I gave you the wrong thing. Cheating on material provenance is fraud. It's not "counterfeiting", and for a journalist to claim so is misleading spin. A counterfeit is something deliberately constructed in imitation of something else, it's not just a low grade substitute.
- codetrotter 2y ago
  > A counterfeit is something deliberately constructed in imitation of something else, it's not just a low grade substitute. But what if the lower grade substitute was specifically produced with the goal in mind of passing it off as this other kind?
- jdavis703 2y ago
  Spirit believed it was buying a specific, certified titanium alloy. Imagine the rabbis at Hebrew National were out sick, but Hebrew National continued churning out “Kosher hotdogs” that hadn’t been properly vetted. Sure it’s still a hotdog made with kosher ingredients. But it’s a major violation of trust. And trust is what consumers expect when flying.

lupusreal 2y ago

It's not spun, you're just being overly literal. They're not talking about pure elemental titanium, alloy is implicit here. And even if it were a matter of pure titanium, passing off an alloy as that would also make it counterfeit.