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I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States. That seems incredibly hyperbolic. The closest thing I could

by troad 2y ago

I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States. That seems incredibly hyperbolic. The closest thing I could find was a single 16 year old killed in Wisconsin last year. Very sad, but n=1, and the attribution to 'rolling back' child labour regulations seems spurious (did the previous regulations prevent 16 year olds from working?). Edit: I'm noting the downvotes, but I stand by this. Just because something plays into your political preconceptions doesn't mean it's true. (We should all be doubly sceptical of spurious factoids that just so happen to perfectly align with our political views!)

orson2077 2y ago
They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation.
- troad 2y ago
  > They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation. Hyperbole is by definition false, its use illustrates nothing beyond the speaker's willingness to stretch the truth. In this case, to make political claims. Ought we organise our societies on the basis of political claims 'illustrated' by bombastic falsehoods?
  - fifticon 2y ago
    We are already so high up this tree you can no longer see the ground. There, one more hyperbolic falsehood for you.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  I would judge that someone falsely claiming that 14 year olds are being killed in sawmills as a result of policy changes they dislike is the one deliberately trying to derail the conversation more than someone who correctly claims "no, that is false".
  - carb 2y ago
    The burden of proof is certainly on the person claiming there's an increase in child labor death. However just because they didn't provide proof doesn't make the claim "false". The increase in child labor-related deaths is happening and will continue as child labor laws are rolled back in states across the US.
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      Fair. I am willing to wait for evidence that a 14 year old was killed in a sawmill as a result of these policy changes before cementing my conclusion that it was a false claim.
    - troad 2y ago
      > The increase in child labor-related deaths is happening and will continue as child labor laws are rolled back in states across the US. You’re accepting the claim because you already believe it to be true, but both you and the original person making the claim have no evidence for this. This is a very dangerous style of political argument. “Well, there are no facts here, but this claim reinforces my already existing beliefs, so the vibes check out!” We want policy around workplace safety to be evidence based, not vibes and feels based, because the former will save lives and the latter will not.
      - carb 2y ago
        I'm curious why you think these laws were enacted in the first place? Do you think there was not evidence back then which convinced a majority of people to want that big change?
        troad 2y ago
        They were based on mountains of data, collected methodically over a number of years to make an ironclad case for reform. That’s good law making! I support this! However, data from 1910 is accurate for 1910, not for 2024. If children are dying en masse in workplaces today, it ought not be difficult to collate the data required to tighten the laws further. And yet, all I’ve seen is assertions, vibes, and vague conspiracy theories. Policy making is a balancing act; we calibrate laws for the circumstances as they develop. The only way to do this intelligently, or even competently, is on the basis of evidence.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  The use of hyperbole is actually misses the point and derails the conversation. If a point is valid and clear hyperbole isn't needed. Concerns over children dying in job related accidents or being made to work extreme hours or in bad conditions is a fine point. Children falling into sawmills just muddies the waters and will draw in people who disagree that that is a concern at all.
carb 2y ago
- The 16 year old in Wisconsin you found - 16 year old in Mississippi last July: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/business/mississippi-marjac-poultry-teen-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/business/mississippi-marj... - Iowa allowing teens 14.5+ years old to drive to work. https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2024-01-24/teens-as-young-as-14-could-drive-to-work-under-this-iowa-senate-bill https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2024-0... --- Using data from the National Household Travel Survey, the fatal crash rate per mile driven for 16-19 year-olds is nearly 3 times the rate for drivers ages 20 and over. Risk is highest at ages 16-17. --- Given that Risk increases as age decreases, 14-15 year olds are at a high risk of fatal injury while driving on the road. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/teenagers - 15 year old in Alabama: https://x.com/greenhousenyt/status/1755262697602523319 https://x.com/greenhousenyt/status/1755262697602523319 - 16 year old loses both legs in Washington: https://www.lni.wa.gov/news-events/article/24-01 https://www.lni.wa.gov/news-events/article/24-01 This was with a few minutes of searching. You have to filter out child labor deaths abroad and other breaking news, but the deaths are there and they're increasing. Note that for each death that results in a successful lawsuit, you should assume there are other deaths happening where the family either (1) couldn't afford to bring a case, (2) agreed to private settlement, or even (3) it just didn't get big enough to make the broader news.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Its interesting that the takeaway here is that teenagers are too fragile to do a job and must forego learning a new skill. Is the idea really that it's okay to die on the job as long as you are 18 or older? Roofing companies shouldn't have anyone falling off the roof, there are OSHA regulations for a reason. 16 year olds being bad drivers has nothing to do with their employmwnt status. Using trenchers is dangerous no matter who you are, that isn't age related and if we are collectively concerned with how much damage they can do we should not use the machines. Protecting and teaching kids is totally reasonable, but how far down the path of trapping them in a bubble do we really want to go?
  - carb 2y ago
    As a global society we've generally agreed that if you are under the age of 18 you are not grown enough to make decisions that could put yourself or society at risk. - You cannot sign up for the military, even though you might know how to aim and fire a weapon. - You cannot vote in elections. - You cannot purchase nicotine, alcohol, or other drugs. (In the USA this age is higher at 21) So the takeaway is that yes, teenagers are too fragile and don't have the risk assessment capacity to work some of these dangerous jobs. Yes, we have OSHA and other safety regulations. Still the jobs are dangerous. Adults are more likely to call this out or recognize when these regulations are being disregarded, but a 14 year old might not realize that what they are doing is more dangerous than it should be.
goodpoint 2y ago
> I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States ...because in small scale, instead, would be acceptable?!
- troad 2y ago
  > ...because in small scale, instead, would be acceptable?! Because it’s generally a bad idea to legislate for over a third of a billion of humans on the basis of rare freak accidents.
  - yohannparis 2y ago
    I do not think teenagers represents 333 millions people in the U.S.A.
  - goodpoint 2y ago
    This is not how legal systems work. It is probably a "rare freak accident" to be shot by a baboon but nonetheless it is illegal to to create dangerous situations like giving a loaded weapon to animals at the zoo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour is very much illegal around the world, yo.
    - troad 2y ago
      You're (wilfully?) misunderstanding. No one is saying that laws somehow magically cease to apply to unusual events (wut?). The argument is that good legislative lawmaking is based on data and evidence. Rushing to make legislation to respond to (media coverage of) freak occurrences rarely leads to good lawmaking. Try to engage in good faith. You don't really think that people don't know what child labour is illegal, and require a Wiki link to elucidate this obscure fact. You're just performing outrage. Why do so? What benefit does doing so bring you, or anyone else?
      - goodpoint 2y ago
        No, you literally wrote "it’s generally a bad idea to legislate for over a third of a billion of humans on the basis of rare freak accidents". > Rushing to make legislation to respond to (media coverage of) freak occurrences rarely leads to good lawmaking. I agree. Yet, laws against child labor already exist and they work as a "blanket" safety mechanism against all threats to children, regardless of what incident might happen. > Try to engage in good faith. ... You're just performing outrage. Please do not accuse other people of acting in bad faith.
failuser 2y ago
Yes, that sawmill incident was with 16-year-old, but there are more at other industries. E.g. WI regulations were relaxed to allow 14-years-old work 40 hour weeks as well part of the year. If there is not enough pushback fatalities are a matter of time.

by troad 2y ago

orson2077 2y ago

They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation.

troad 2y ago
> They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation. Hyperbole is by definition false, its use illustrates nothing beyond the speaker's willingness to stretch the truth. In this case, to make political claims. Ought we organise our societies on the basis of political claims 'illustrated' by bombastic falsehoods?
- fifticon 2y ago
  We are already so high up this tree you can no longer see the ground. There, one more hyperbolic falsehood for you.
sokoloff 2y ago
I would judge that someone falsely claiming that 14 year olds are being killed in sawmills as a result of policy changes they dislike is the one deliberately trying to derail the conversation more than someone who correctly claims "no, that is false".
- carb 2y ago
  The burden of proof is certainly on the person claiming there's an increase in child labor death. However just because they didn't provide proof doesn't make the claim "false". The increase in child labor-related deaths is happening and will continue as child labor laws are rolled back in states across the US.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    Fair. I am willing to wait for evidence that a 14 year old was killed in a sawmill as a result of these policy changes before cementing my conclusion that it was a false claim.
  - troad 2y ago
    > The increase in child labor-related deaths is happening and will continue as child labor laws are rolled back in states across the US. You’re accepting the claim because you already believe it to be true, but both you and the original person making the claim have no evidence for this. This is a very dangerous style of political argument. “Well, there are no facts here, but this claim reinforces my already existing beliefs, so the vibes check out!” We want policy around workplace safety to be evidence based, not vibes and feels based, because the former will save lives and the latter will not.
    - carb 2y ago
      I'm curious why you think these laws were enacted in the first place? Do you think there was not evidence back then which convinced a majority of people to want that big change?
      - troad 2y ago
        They were based on mountains of data, collected methodically over a number of years to make an ironclad case for reform. That’s good law making! I support this! However, data from 1910 is accurate for 1910, not for 2024. If children are dying en masse in workplaces today, it ought not be difficult to collate the data required to tighten the laws further. And yet, all I’ve seen is assertions, vibes, and vague conspiracy theories. Policy making is a balancing act; we calibrate laws for the circumstances as they develop. The only way to do this intelligently, or even competently, is on the basis of evidence.
_heimdall 2y ago
The use of hyperbole is actually misses the point and derails the conversation. If a point is valid and clear hyperbole isn't needed. Concerns over children dying in job related accidents or being made to work extreme hours or in bad conditions is a fine point. Children falling into sawmills just muddies the waters and will draw in people who disagree that that is a concern at all.

carb 2y ago

- The 16 year old in Wisconsin you found - 16 year old in Mississippi last July: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/business/mississippi-marjac-poultry-teen-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/business/mississippi-marj... - Iowa allowing teens 14.5+ years old to drive to work. https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2024-01-24/teens-as-young-as-14-could-drive-to-work-under-this-iowa-senate-bill https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-news/2024-0... --- Using data from the National Household Travel Survey, the fatal crash rate per mile driven for 16-19 year-olds is nearly 3 times the rate for drivers ages 20 and over. Risk is highest at ages 16-17. --- Given that Risk increases as age decreases, 14-15 year olds are at a high risk of fatal injury while driving on the road. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/teenagers - 15 year old in Alabama: https://x.com/greenhousenyt/status/1755262697602523319 https://x.com/greenhousenyt/status/1755262697602523319 - 16 year old loses both legs in Washington: https://www.lni.wa.gov/news-events/article/24-01 https://www.lni.wa.gov/news-events/article/24-01 This was with a few minutes of searching. You have to filter out child labor deaths abroad and other breaking news, but the deaths are there and they're increasing. Note that for each death that results in a successful lawsuit, you should assume there are other deaths happening where the family either (1) couldn't afford to bring a case, (2) agreed to private settlement, or even (3) it just didn't get big enough to make the broader news.

_heimdall 2y ago
Its interesting that the takeaway here is that teenagers are too fragile to do a job and must forego learning a new skill. Is the idea really that it's okay to die on the job as long as you are 18 or older? Roofing companies shouldn't have anyone falling off the roof, there are OSHA regulations for a reason. 16 year olds being bad drivers has nothing to do with their employmwnt status. Using trenchers is dangerous no matter who you are, that isn't age related and if we are collectively concerned with how much damage they can do we should not use the machines. Protecting and teaching kids is totally reasonable, but how far down the path of trapping them in a bubble do we really want to go?
- carb 2y ago
  As a global society we've generally agreed that if you are under the age of 18 you are not grown enough to make decisions that could put yourself or society at risk. - You cannot sign up for the military, even though you might know how to aim and fire a weapon. - You cannot vote in elections. - You cannot purchase nicotine, alcohol, or other drugs. (In the USA this age is higher at 21) So the takeaway is that yes, teenagers are too fragile and don't have the risk assessment capacity to work some of these dangerous jobs. Yes, we have OSHA and other safety regulations. Still the jobs are dangerous. Adults are more likely to call this out or recognize when these regulations are being disregarded, but a 14 year old might not realize that what they are doing is more dangerous than it should be.

goodpoint 2y ago

> I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States ...because in small scale, instead, would be acceptable?!

troad 2y ago
> ...because in small scale, instead, would be acceptable?! Because it’s generally a bad idea to legislate for over a third of a billion of humans on the basis of rare freak accidents.
- yohannparis 2y ago
  I do not think teenagers represents 333 millions people in the U.S.A.
- goodpoint 2y ago
  This is not how legal systems work. It is probably a "rare freak accident" to be shot by a baboon but nonetheless it is illegal to to create dangerous situations like giving a loaded weapon to animals at the zoo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour is very much illegal around the world, yo.
  - troad 2y ago
    You're (wilfully?) misunderstanding. No one is saying that laws somehow magically cease to apply to unusual events (wut?). The argument is that good legislative lawmaking is based on data and evidence. Rushing to make legislation to respond to (media coverage of) freak occurrences rarely leads to good lawmaking. Try to engage in good faith. You don't really think that people don't know what child labour is illegal, and require a Wiki link to elucidate this obscure fact. You're just performing outrage. Why do so? What benefit does doing so bring you, or anyone else?
    - goodpoint 2y ago
      No, you literally wrote "it’s generally a bad idea to legislate for over a third of a billion of humans on the basis of rare freak accidents". > Rushing to make legislation to respond to (media coverage of) freak occurrences rarely leads to good lawmaking. I agree. Yet, laws against child labor already exist and they work as a "blanket" safety mechanism against all threats to children, regardless of what incident might happen. > Try to engage in good faith. ... You're just performing outrage. Please do not accuse other people of acting in bad faith.

failuser 2y ago

Yes, that sawmill incident was with 16-year-old, but there are more at other industries. E.g. WI regulations were relaxed to allow 14-years-old work 40 hour weeks as well part of the year. If there is not enough pushback fatalities are a matter of time.