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You need to fight for keeping any accomplishments you’ve got. US rolled back many child labor regulations, so we have 14 years old killed by sawmills again. It’

You need to fight for keeping any accomplishments you’ve got. US rolled back many child labor regulations, so we have 14 years old killed by sawmills again. It’s not like the US banned children from mines because it was economically more profitable.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
johnnyanmac 2y ago
it was indirectly more profitable. no child labor -> children would have no distractions for grade school -> more chldren graduate -> graduates tend to contribute more to the national economy. At least that was the theory. Clearly private lobbyists and various interests groups who want to erode the country don't care about such factors.
- willis936 2y ago
  As does a healthy middle class who get what they want (e.g. homeownership).
- n4r9 2y ago
  AFAIK modern capitalism doesn't incentivise behaviours that cause broad economic growth over a long period without any short-term profit. That's what governments are needed for.
- gwd 2y ago
  > it was indirectly more profitable. Exactly: Child labor laws are more profitable for society; child labor is more profitable for a small set of individuals. Lobbying by interest groups is often pushing away from the former and towards the latter. ETA: In line with this sub-thread, I'd say: There are and always will be private interest groups lobbying against the former and towards the latter; and so there will always need to be public interest groups lobbying against the latter and towards the former. That applies to LVT as much as environmental and labor protections.
  - chrisweekly 2y ago
    ETA?
    - sokoloff 2y ago
      "Edit to Add" I think.
troad 2y ago
I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States. That seems incredibly hyperbolic. The closest thing I could find was a single 16 year old killed in Wisconsin last year. Very sad, but n=1, and the attribution to 'rolling back' child labour regulations seems spurious (did the previous regulations prevent 16 year olds from working?). Edit: I'm noting the downvotes, but I stand by this. Just because something plays into your political preconceptions doesn't mean it's true. (We should all be doubly sceptical of spurious factoids that just so happen to perfectly align with our political views!)
- orson2077 2y ago
  They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation.
  - troad 2y ago
    > They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation. Hyperbole is by definition false, its use illustrates nothing beyond the speaker's willingness to stretch the truth. In this case, to make political claims. Ought we organise our societies on the basis of political claims 'illustrated' by bombastic falsehoods?
    - fifticon 2y ago
      We are already so high up this tree you can no longer see the ground. There, one more hyperbolic falsehood for you.
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    I would judge that someone falsely claiming that 14 year olds are being killed in sawmills as a result of policy changes they dislike is the one deliberately trying to derail the conversation more than someone who correctly claims "no, that is false".
    - 2y ago
_heimdall 2y ago
How many 14 year olds getting a job even find a sawmill or a mine to apply to in the US? Concerns over child labor when working at McDonalds or Walmart is one thing, but it's a real stretch to go straight to 14 year olds dying in sawmill accidents.
- ink_13 2y ago
  Indeed, these days it's more likely to be meatpacking or auto parts
  - Lord-Jobo 2y ago
    Saw mill, industrial lathe, or spot welder; I'm not sure it matters too much which one of these is killing desperate and poor children being abused for profit
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      Do you have any stats on how many children are actually dying in these ways, and whether it is in fact disproportionately hurting the poor? I have a hard time believing many children are dying in this way in the US today but I'm happy to be wrong and learn something new if there is real data there.
      - oxide 2y ago
        Looks like the current stats are focused more on the 69% increase from '19 to '22 in illegally employed children across the US. [1] (https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20220729 https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20220729) Actually, that report includes a few examples of children killed on the job. Like a 16 year old who died while working in construction, he fell about 160 feet to the ground after trying to jump from a roof to a nearby powered lift. In Nashville. [2] (same link as [1]) It also details the rise in children being employed to do hazardous labor. Killed in sawmills is a bit of hyperbole, but it's not far off from the truth it seems.
roenxi 2y ago
Child labour in mining is uneconomic though. You'd still get children here-and-there for whatever reason, but mining involves hugely expensive machines doing most of the work, or heavy lifting that a child can't do. If you're comfortable spending $10 million on a machine and putting a small child behind the wheel, odds are great you'll go bankrupt trying to run a mine.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

johnnyanmac 2y ago

it was indirectly more profitable. no child labor -> children would have no distractions for grade school -> more chldren graduate -> graduates tend to contribute more to the national economy. At least that was the theory. Clearly private lobbyists and various interests groups who want to erode the country don't care about such factors.

willis936 2y ago
As does a healthy middle class who get what they want (e.g. homeownership).
n4r9 2y ago
AFAIK modern capitalism doesn't incentivise behaviours that cause broad economic growth over a long period without any short-term profit. That's what governments are needed for.
gwd 2y ago
> it was indirectly more profitable. Exactly: Child labor laws are more profitable for society; child labor is more profitable for a small set of individuals. Lobbying by interest groups is often pushing away from the former and towards the latter. ETA: In line with this sub-thread, I'd say: There are and always will be private interest groups lobbying against the former and towards the latter; and so there will always need to be public interest groups lobbying against the latter and towards the former. That applies to LVT as much as environmental and labor protections.
- chrisweekly 2y ago
  ETA?
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    "Edit to Add" I think.

troad 2y ago

I genuinely doubt 14 year olds are being killed on any mass scale by sawmills in the United States. That seems incredibly hyperbolic. The closest thing I could find was a single 16 year old killed in Wisconsin last year. Very sad, but n=1, and the attribution to 'rolling back' child labour regulations seems spurious (did the previous regulations prevent 16 year olds from working?). Edit: I'm noting the downvotes, but I stand by this. Just because something plays into your political preconceptions doesn't mean it's true. (We should all be doubly sceptical of spurious factoids that just so happen to perfectly align with our political views!)

orson2077 2y ago
They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation.
- troad 2y ago
  > They’re using hyperbole to illustrate the point; don’t miss the point or deliberately try to derail the conversation. Hyperbole is by definition false, its use illustrates nothing beyond the speaker's willingness to stretch the truth. In this case, to make political claims. Ought we organise our societies on the basis of political claims 'illustrated' by bombastic falsehoods?
  - fifticon 2y ago
    We are already so high up this tree you can no longer see the ground. There, one more hyperbolic falsehood for you.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  I would judge that someone falsely claiming that 14 year olds are being killed in sawmills as a result of policy changes they dislike is the one deliberately trying to derail the conversation more than someone who correctly claims "no, that is false".
  - 2y ago

_heimdall 2y ago

How many 14 year olds getting a job even find a sawmill or a mine to apply to in the US? Concerns over child labor when working at McDonalds or Walmart is one thing, but it's a real stretch to go straight to 14 year olds dying in sawmill accidents.

ink_13 2y ago
Indeed, these days it's more likely to be meatpacking or auto parts
- Lord-Jobo 2y ago
  Saw mill, industrial lathe, or spot welder; I'm not sure it matters too much which one of these is killing desperate and poor children being abused for profit
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Do you have any stats on how many children are actually dying in these ways, and whether it is in fact disproportionately hurting the poor? I have a hard time believing many children are dying in this way in the US today but I'm happy to be wrong and learn something new if there is real data there.
    - oxide 2y ago
      Looks like the current stats are focused more on the 69% increase from '19 to '22 in illegally employed children across the US. [1] (https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20220729 https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/whd/whd20220729) Actually, that report includes a few examples of children killed on the job. Like a 16 year old who died while working in construction, he fell about 160 feet to the ground after trying to jump from a roof to a nearby powered lift. In Nashville. [2] (same link as [1]) It also details the rise in children being employed to do hazardous labor. Killed in sawmills is a bit of hyperbole, but it's not far off from the truth it seems.

roenxi 2y ago

Child labour in mining is uneconomic though. You'd still get children here-and-there for whatever reason, but mining involves hugely expensive machines doing most of the work, or heavy lifting that a child can't do. If you're comfortable spending $10 million on a machine and putting a small child behind the wheel, odds are great you'll go bankrupt trying to run a mine.