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Meanwhile Apple Intelligence recalls across all apps with no backlash. I personally like this idea, should be done in a thoughtful and safe way, but recalling y

Meanwhile Apple Intelligence recalls across all apps with no backlash. I personally like this idea, should be done in a thoughtful and safe way, but recalling your logs is more useful than searching anew. I see the same double standard with Google's generative search vs OpenAI's chatGPT with search - when Google gets it wrong, it's a big issue, but not for the other.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
The power of trust (and brand loyalty)
- callalex 2y ago
  (And completely different implementations)
Dalewyn 2y ago
I feel Recall got excessive backlash because of how ubiquitous and far reaching Windows is, and critics basically live and die by finding something popular to bitch about. There are already many things that record our data and actions that most of us are otherwise fine with. Browsing history, Undo in any number of productivity software, search histories both local (eg: Windows) and remote (eg: Google, Bing), password managers and Post-Its on monitors(tm), chat logs, vidja gaem save files, and more. Some of the issues floated like the seemingly complete lack of encryption are valid, but the overall response indeed felt very overblown and hypocritical.
- davesmylie 2y ago
  > Browsing history, Undo in any number of productivity software, search histories both local (eg: Windows) and remote (eg: Google, Bing), password managers and Post-Its on monitors(tm), chat logs, vidja gaem save files, and more. None of these are taking screenshots of your entire desktop, using OCR and AI to summarize all text/secrets displayed and storing them in a single centralized, location, (currently) easily exfiltrated and searched by any one gaining access to your desktop They made the right call to delay and revisit this.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Is there a difference between that and the others? I'm not seeing one fundamentally and brutally speaking. Also, if a hostile has access to your computer then all bets are off. Nothing matters at that point besides how quickly you can remove that access if it's even possible and whether you can deal with the fallout.
    - davesmylie 2y ago
      I probably would have agreed once that someone physically having access to your computer was as bad as things could get. Given the choice now though between someone having access to my computer, _or_ someone having physical access to my computer as well as a database with a detailed and lengthy history of every secret i've ever seen in my terminal or web browser, as well every bit of employer or customer data that I've seen whilst working, as well as well ... everything else personal, all in one nice tidy package they could download and search as they pleased - I think the former would end up not being quite as bad things could get.
    - jononor 2y ago
      The Microsoft approach will slurp up passwords/tokens, as well as anything in incognito browser window, etc. Things that are explicitly designed to be private. And it may have stored images, not just text.
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        >slurp up passwords/tokens So like the clipboard? >anything in incognito browser window None of that is private. >And it may have stored images, not just text. They're both data. Once again: Is there any difference? I'm not seeing one. Pedantics aren't worth my time.
- mrangle 2y ago
  Explain "hypocrisy". As far as "overblown" goes, there's no other realm of social balance wherein concession to something means an obligation to an extreme. Last, your statement falsely presupposes that most are happy with any tracking / intrusion.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >Explain "hypocrisy". Recall is neither the first nor the last thing to record and store your actions and data. Why is it such a big problem? >Last, your statement falsely presupposes that most are happy with any tracking / intrusion. Most people are in fact fine with tracking, it has been demonstrated time and time again ad nauseum that the commons do not fucking care about digital privacy and especially if they are inconvenienced. As for intrusions (presumably you mean attacks, whether digital or physical?), it's not so much most people are fine with it so much as they don't/can't care as it's all far above their paygrades.
    - mrangle 2y ago
      >Recall is neither the first nor the last thing to record and store your actions and data. Why is it such a big problem? Not agreeing to something that one does not want, in spite of tolerating qualitatively similar yet different objects that one also does want not want, is not "hypocrisy". It's a boundary. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of boundaries? I feel like I'm in an argument with a psychologically abusive SO. You imply a defect in rationality via your misuse or misunderstanding of vocabulary. As what? A means of browbeating people into acceptance? Your need to resort to such a non-agreeable tactic, alone, should inform you that your logic is the problem if not your motive or Recall itself. It is within everyone's right, and within the bounds of rationality, to reject Recall on its qualitative differences, on the sole fact that they don't want one more tracker when they really don't want the first, or because others seem strangely over-interested in making poor yet insistent arguments in favor of it. I mean, if it's just one more tracker than why does anyone need it? Right? Or is the singular nature of Recall that makes it uniquely desirable to some the reason that it is rationally undesirable to others? Denial of that nature of Recall is what is hypocritical. >Most people are in fact fine with tracking, Do "most" people have the option of easily turning tracking completely off? Most are "fine" with it? Except the ones that aren't, who are tend to also be against having second to second activity recorded. Right? And who are significant enough that you feel compelled to argue with them here. >the commons do not fucking care about digital privacy ooph, the spicy language. I'm persuaded. >As for intrusions (presumably you mean attacks, whether digital or physical?) No, as the attack vs tracking difference of user data being sent to an off-site server, and then sold or otherwise, is immaterial when the user isn't aware of the nature of the data being sent if they are aware of it being sent at all. With Recall and for most users, the possibility that screenshot data would be remotely accessed certainly falls under the category of "intrusion". In spite of legalese. >it's not so much most people are fine with it so much as... it's all far above their paygrades. Boom
crystaln 2y ago
Their implementation is entirely different. This is like comparing Telegram to Signal.
- sprobertson 2y ago
  More like comparing Instagram to Signal
oefrha 2y ago
When did Apple announce they’re going to start taking screenshots of entire screens and storing them? Windows has had a (crappy) unified search “across all apps” for years and there’s been no backlash AFAIK.
- iLoveOncall 2y ago
  They didn't, and they wouldn't. Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. The only reason people aren't outraged at Apple is because they won't be able to access the directory with all the screenshots unlike on Windows. Both implementations are awful. Apple's one is probably the worst one actually, because it sends some data to Apple's servers for processing (probably most), when Microsoft runs everything on the device.
  - kbf 2y ago
    >Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. We already know how it works, it’s based on App Intents. It’s how Shortcuts has worked for years, just instead of meticulously making your shortcuts for each automation you want to do, you essentially get an ML model to make one on the fly.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    > Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. … Wait, how do you think they’d keep _that_ one secret?
    - iLoveOncall 2y ago
      By encrypting the data on your device with a key that only they have? It's extremely simple.
ketzo 2y ago
Are we really comparing a userland, unencrypted-at-rest SQLite database with Apple's app sandbox + secure enclave?
- hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
  To be evenhanded, encrypting SQLite at rest is a well-solved problem. Dr. Richard Hipp and his merry men even sell an official extension to do so. Plenty of third party FOSS solutions also exist for this. I feel if that were the case I'd suddenly feel a lot more comfortable with the MS approach than the Apple approach.
  - mjg59 2y ago
    Under what circumstances would someone have access to the database but not the key?
    - hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
      Well, presumably under the circumstances where you'd prefer that.
      - mjg59 2y ago
        How?
  - karlgkk 2y ago
    Encryption isn’t the problem here, it’s key management. And Microsoft’s solution was borderline useless
- postmodest 2y ago
  Apple's competitors lose the PR war if they don't post to social media!
ankurdhama 2y ago
MS recall captures screenshot, analyze them, extract data from them and create a database index of these things so you can search them. Apple AI essentially provides API hooks that apps can use to expose actions and data to the model. Currently it seems Apple own apps does that but any app owner can decide to support this or not. Two completely different approach.
- str3wer 2y ago
  and it was possible for any user on windows to have access to these screenshots
- azinman2 2y ago
  Not only that but the data is what is exposed to spotlight - an api that’s existed forever. iOS 18 just has much better search over the same data.
- visarga 2y ago
  > Two completely different approach. Just semantics. In the end Apple has access to everything, like MS.
  - mimikatz 2y ago
    It isn't there are large real world implications and difference in what each does and what risk it exposes to the end user.
  - DougN7 2y ago
    I suspect Apple doesn’t have access to everything typed into a web form, or in a notes app, even if those values are erased/backspaces, not saved, not submitted. But Recall does. All usernames in all apps/websites. The content of every single web page you visit, not just the URL. The content of every email you read, every document you open of any kind in any app. Apple _might_ spy on some of this. Recall WOULD record ALL of that. Very different in my opinion.
- jwrallie 2y ago
  To me it sounds that anyone could implement Microsoft’s approach as an app, there is no reason for it to be bundled with the OS. The only difference would be it would cost users token costs directly as opposed to be paid by other means.
greenthrow 2y ago
You are failing to appreciate how the things are different and this is why you are baffled by the different responses.
riffraff 2y ago
Personally, I feel about Apple Intelligence only slightly more positive than MS Recall. I mean, sure, private cloud looks as good as something can be without being open source and self-hosted, but it seems nobody considered the fact that I do not want everything I do to be tracked. If this was a per-app opt-in then maybe but as it has been presented this is pure distopia.
logicchains 2y ago
>when Google gets it wrong, it's a big issue, but not for the other. Because Google was presenting the AI-generated answer as the top query result, implying it's the most relevant/factual answer. OpenAI (and Bing) make it clear you're talking to an AI chatbot, which most people wouldn't expect to be as reliable/accurate as the first result in Google search.
pjmlp 2y ago
There is some backslash, however besides brand recognition, Apple has taken all the steps to approach this with security first, features second, to the point that they even have a special OS version for the server side, unikernel style, everything taken away not needed to AI compute or networking, using Swift, and the secure enclave. Not a cleartext SQL Lite database, with stuff written either in C or C++ with COM, as the WinDev business unit loves to do.
- stby 2y ago
  On the other hand, Recall doesn't even have a server side, right? Ignoring the SQLite access issue for a moment, I'll always prefer a local solution.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Microsoft says it is local, how much you end up believing that is up to you. Those of us with long Windows development experience certainly don't.
rsynnott 2y ago
While I'm not a huge fan of Apple's thing, either, it isn't the same level of ridiculously over-aggressive data collection.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago

The power of trust (and brand loyalty)

callalex 2y ago
(And completely different implementations)

Dalewyn 2y ago

I feel Recall got excessive backlash because of how ubiquitous and far reaching Windows is, and critics basically live and die by finding something popular to bitch about. There are already many things that record our data and actions that most of us are otherwise fine with. Browsing history, Undo in any number of productivity software, search histories both local (eg: Windows) and remote (eg: Google, Bing), password managers and Post-Its on monitors(tm), chat logs, vidja gaem save files, and more. Some of the issues floated like the seemingly complete lack of encryption are valid, but the overall response indeed felt very overblown and hypocritical.

davesmylie 2y ago
> Browsing history, Undo in any number of productivity software, search histories both local (eg: Windows) and remote (eg: Google, Bing), password managers and Post-Its on monitors(tm), chat logs, vidja gaem save files, and more. None of these are taking screenshots of your entire desktop, using OCR and AI to summarize all text/secrets displayed and storing them in a single centralized, location, (currently) easily exfiltrated and searched by any one gaining access to your desktop They made the right call to delay and revisit this.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Is there a difference between that and the others? I'm not seeing one fundamentally and brutally speaking. Also, if a hostile has access to your computer then all bets are off. Nothing matters at that point besides how quickly you can remove that access if it's even possible and whether you can deal with the fallout.
  - davesmylie 2y ago
    I probably would have agreed once that someone physically having access to your computer was as bad as things could get. Given the choice now though between someone having access to my computer, _or_ someone having physical access to my computer as well as a database with a detailed and lengthy history of every secret i've ever seen in my terminal or web browser, as well every bit of employer or customer data that I've seen whilst working, as well as well ... everything else personal, all in one nice tidy package they could download and search as they pleased - I think the former would end up not being quite as bad things could get.
  - jononor 2y ago
    The Microsoft approach will slurp up passwords/tokens, as well as anything in incognito browser window, etc. Things that are explicitly designed to be private. And it may have stored images, not just text.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      >slurp up passwords/tokens So like the clipboard? >anything in incognito browser window None of that is private. >And it may have stored images, not just text. They're both data. Once again: Is there any difference? I'm not seeing one. Pedantics aren't worth my time.
mrangle 2y ago
Explain "hypocrisy". As far as "overblown" goes, there's no other realm of social balance wherein concession to something means an obligation to an extreme. Last, your statement falsely presupposes that most are happy with any tracking / intrusion.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >Explain "hypocrisy". Recall is neither the first nor the last thing to record and store your actions and data. Why is it such a big problem? >Last, your statement falsely presupposes that most are happy with any tracking / intrusion. Most people are in fact fine with tracking, it has been demonstrated time and time again ad nauseum that the commons do not fucking care about digital privacy and especially if they are inconvenienced. As for intrusions (presumably you mean attacks, whether digital or physical?), it's not so much most people are fine with it so much as they don't/can't care as it's all far above their paygrades.
  - mrangle 2y ago
    >Recall is neither the first nor the last thing to record and store your actions and data. Why is it such a big problem? Not agreeing to something that one does not want, in spite of tolerating qualitatively similar yet different objects that one also does want not want, is not "hypocrisy". It's a boundary. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of boundaries? I feel like I'm in an argument with a psychologically abusive SO. You imply a defect in rationality via your misuse or misunderstanding of vocabulary. As what? A means of browbeating people into acceptance? Your need to resort to such a non-agreeable tactic, alone, should inform you that your logic is the problem if not your motive or Recall itself. It is within everyone's right, and within the bounds of rationality, to reject Recall on its qualitative differences, on the sole fact that they don't want one more tracker when they really don't want the first, or because others seem strangely over-interested in making poor yet insistent arguments in favor of it. I mean, if it's just one more tracker than why does anyone need it? Right? Or is the singular nature of Recall that makes it uniquely desirable to some the reason that it is rationally undesirable to others? Denial of that nature of Recall is what is hypocritical. >Most people are in fact fine with tracking, Do "most" people have the option of easily turning tracking completely off? Most are "fine" with it? Except the ones that aren't, who are tend to also be against having second to second activity recorded. Right? And who are significant enough that you feel compelled to argue with them here. >the commons do not fucking care about digital privacy ooph, the spicy language. I'm persuaded. >As for intrusions (presumably you mean attacks, whether digital or physical?) No, as the attack vs tracking difference of user data being sent to an off-site server, and then sold or otherwise, is immaterial when the user isn't aware of the nature of the data being sent if they are aware of it being sent at all. With Recall and for most users, the possibility that screenshot data would be remotely accessed certainly falls under the category of "intrusion". In spite of legalese. >it's not so much most people are fine with it so much as... it's all far above their paygrades. Boom

crystaln 2y ago

Their implementation is entirely different. This is like comparing Telegram to Signal.

sprobertson 2y ago
More like comparing Instagram to Signal

oefrha 2y ago

When did Apple announce they’re going to start taking screenshots of entire screens and storing them? Windows has had a (crappy) unified search “across all apps” for years and there’s been no backlash AFAIK.

iLoveOncall 2y ago
They didn't, and they wouldn't. Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. The only reason people aren't outraged at Apple is because they won't be able to access the directory with all the screenshots unlike on Windows. Both implementations are awful. Apple's one is probably the worst one actually, because it sends some data to Apple's servers for processing (probably most), when Microsoft runs everything on the device.
- kbf 2y ago
  >Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. We already know how it works, it’s based on App Intents. It’s how Shortcuts has worked for years, just instead of meticulously making your shortcuts for each automation you want to do, you essentially get an ML model to make one on the fly.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > Yet, for all we know and ever will know, it's exactly how their feature might work. … Wait, how do you think they’d keep _that_ one secret?
  - iLoveOncall 2y ago
    By encrypting the data on your device with a key that only they have? It's extremely simple.

ketzo 2y ago

Are we really comparing a userland, unencrypted-at-rest SQLite database with Apple's app sandbox + secure enclave?

hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
To be evenhanded, encrypting SQLite at rest is a well-solved problem. Dr. Richard Hipp and his merry men even sell an official extension to do so. Plenty of third party FOSS solutions also exist for this. I feel if that were the case I'd suddenly feel a lot more comfortable with the MS approach than the Apple approach.
- mjg59 2y ago
  Under what circumstances would someone have access to the database but not the key?
  - hiAndrewQuinn 2y ago
    Well, presumably under the circumstances where you'd prefer that.
    - mjg59 2y ago
      How?
- karlgkk 2y ago
  Encryption isn’t the problem here, it’s key management. And Microsoft’s solution was borderline useless
postmodest 2y ago
Apple's competitors lose the PR war if they don't post to social media!

ankurdhama 2y ago

MS recall captures screenshot, analyze them, extract data from them and create a database index of these things so you can search them. Apple AI essentially provides API hooks that apps can use to expose actions and data to the model. Currently it seems Apple own apps does that but any app owner can decide to support this or not. Two completely different approach.

str3wer 2y ago
and it was possible for any user on windows to have access to these screenshots
azinman2 2y ago
Not only that but the data is what is exposed to spotlight - an api that’s existed forever. iOS 18 just has much better search over the same data.
visarga 2y ago
> Two completely different approach. Just semantics. In the end Apple has access to everything, like MS.
- mimikatz 2y ago
  It isn't there are large real world implications and difference in what each does and what risk it exposes to the end user.
- DougN7 2y ago
  I suspect Apple doesn’t have access to everything typed into a web form, or in a notes app, even if those values are erased/backspaces, not saved, not submitted. But Recall does. All usernames in all apps/websites. The content of every single web page you visit, not just the URL. The content of every email you read, every document you open of any kind in any app. Apple _might_ spy on some of this. Recall WOULD record ALL of that. Very different in my opinion.
jwrallie 2y ago
To me it sounds that anyone could implement Microsoft’s approach as an app, there is no reason for it to be bundled with the OS. The only difference would be it would cost users token costs directly as opposed to be paid by other means.

greenthrow 2y ago

You are failing to appreciate how the things are different and this is why you are baffled by the different responses.

riffraff 2y ago

Personally, I feel about Apple Intelligence only slightly more positive than MS Recall. I mean, sure, private cloud looks as good as something can be without being open source and self-hosted, but it seems nobody considered the fact that I do not want everything I do to be tracked. If this was a per-app opt-in then maybe but as it has been presented this is pure distopia.

logicchains 2y ago

>when Google gets it wrong, it's a big issue, but not for the other. Because Google was presenting the AI-generated answer as the top query result, implying it's the most relevant/factual answer. OpenAI (and Bing) make it clear you're talking to an AI chatbot, which most people wouldn't expect to be as reliable/accurate as the first result in Google search.

pjmlp 2y ago

There is some backslash, however besides brand recognition, Apple has taken all the steps to approach this with security first, features second, to the point that they even have a special OS version for the server side, unikernel style, everything taken away not needed to AI compute or networking, using Swift, and the secure enclave. Not a cleartext SQL Lite database, with stuff written either in C or C++ with COM, as the WinDev business unit loves to do.

stby 2y ago
On the other hand, Recall doesn't even have a server side, right? Ignoring the SQLite access issue for a moment, I'll always prefer a local solution.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Microsoft says it is local, how much you end up believing that is up to you. Those of us with long Windows development experience certainly don't.

rsynnott 2y ago

While I'm not a huge fan of Apple's thing, either, it isn't the same level of ridiculously over-aggressive data collection.