6 ms·

> COVID-19 can cause brain damage including loss of brain tissue, small blood vessels, and merged brain cells. In some patients, perhaps many, there is also dam

> COVID-19 can cause brain damage including loss of brain tissue, small blood vessels, and merged brain cells. In some patients, perhaps many, there is also damage to the immune system. Now that, I did not know. Crazy how much damage COVID can actually do.

vundercind 2y ago
I suspect lots of viruses do tons of long-term damage in at least some cases, but it’s just less-studied or comes up less in the media. Flu, colds, hand and foot, all that stuff. Though even allowing that, it’s still possible Covid-19 is worse than most viruses, as far as that sort of damage goes.
- jerlam 2y ago
  Even if Covid-19 was similar in terms of causing damage, its high transmissibility and mutability means that it's worse on a population level.
  - nostrebored 2y ago
    That's not true, as you have no idea what the distribution of complications is for almost any illness... you need to understand the complication distribution and the transmissibility in order to judge impact.
    - graeme 2y ago
      They were speaking hypothetically. Even if denotes a scenario where the impact per infection is equal. In such a scenario Covid has worse impact due to the higher transmissibility. People seem to get it every 6-12 months. Flu infection is much less frequent.
      - taeric 2y ago
        I think the flu data is somewhat difficult here. Most people do not refer to having had it if they didn't get sick. Yet, studies are showing from a third to a half of people with the flu will be asymptomatic. Which, is kind of terrifying to me.
        graeme 2y ago
        True, but Covid also has plenty of asymptomatic or low symptomatic cases. I’ve known a few who tested positive while reporting no symptoms. A Chinese field study estimated people got the flu once every five years. It is simply much less contagious. Flu collapsed globally when countries put in place Covid precautions. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-31698038.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/health-31698038.amp
        taeric 2y ago
        Latest study I saw on flu was about 10% of people get it each season. And there was another study showing that families with toddlers are basically always exposed. COVID does follow the same general rates of corona viruses, from what I remember. Which is to say it is higher than flu. So, I am not trying to downplay that.
        graeme 2y ago
        If 10% get it then you'd get it roughly once in every ten years.
        taeric 2y ago
        I'm very hesitant to extrapolate from those numbers. Often times they will use that as "per exposure" number. Such that it will often be far higher than you'd take from a naive reading. Sadly, I don't remember where I saw that number, so can't check up on it. That said, feels very in the weeds here. My stance is largely to have as much patience with folks as can be. I don't personally go through as much effort as many do, but I see no reason for that to be something to get upset over, either.
      - nostrebored 2y ago
        Your assumption is that the impact per infection is equal or worse. I think that there's no real basis to assume that, especially when young. I would expect the distribution of flu complications (externally validated, not based on self-reports) is actually worse.
- Spod_Gaju 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    EBV is liked to many other diseases. To quote wikipedia: "EBV has also been implicated in several other diseases, including Burkitt's lymphoma,[58] hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis,[59] Hodgkin's lymphoma,[60] stomach cancer,[12][61] nasopharyngeal carcinoma,[62] multiple sclerosis,[15][16][63][17] and lymphomatoid granulomatosis.[64]" Burkitt's lymphoma is an oddball cancer in which growth is so fast treatment should begin almost immediately.
    - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
      Yes, and we should also expect a heightened rate of a lot of these oddball diseases after Covid. Frankly, I’m expecting a huge rise in the rate of Early onset Alzheimer’s.
  - graeme 2y ago
    Covid actually reactivates EBV. Different etiologies can have the same symptoms and it is silly to suggest there is no difference between diseases. They’ve found tests which can distinguish long Covid. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10292739/#:~:text=Individuals%20with%20underlying%20medical%20conditions,may%20contribute%20to%20associated%20symptoms https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10292739/#:~:te....
    - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
      Covid doesn’t reactivate the Epstein-Barr virus. What it does is it weaken the immune system further by depleting ATP and GTP. That weakening of the immune system stops our immune system from suppressing EBV. Because exercise alone can weaken the immune system enough to Reactivate viruses.
      - r2_pilot 2y ago
        Thankfully exercise can also help strengthen the immune system. (source: I've been exercising a lot lately after years of feeling like I had chronic fatigue - more accurately it seems to have been sleep apnea - and have had 3 diagnosed cases of mono in my life)
- Animats 2y ago
  The big 2024 National Academies consensus paper says that they see similar long term damage from chronic fatigue syndrome and several rare diseases, but don't mention this as an outcome from more common viruses.[1] (Skip ahead to the summary). The big open question is cumulative damage from multiple COVID-19 infections.[2] There are now many people who have had COVID more than once. (US: 60% at least once, maybe 11% more than once.) A few people have had it many more times, but that seems to involve some pre-existing condition. A VA study of older veterans indicates that cumulative damage is real in older adults. As time goes on, there will be more previously healthy people who have had COVID multiple times, and this question will be answered the hard way. [1] https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/27756/chapter/1 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/27756/chapter/1 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/well/live/covid-reinfection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/well/live/covid-reinfecti...
  - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - iamthirsty 2y ago
      > If you cannot replenish this ATP and GTP you’ll be weaker the next time you get an infection and be sicker in general. This is wrong. You're all over this thread spreading incorrect information.
      - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
        are you calling the prestigious Scientific journal Nature wrong? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67879-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67879-6 Energy depletion indicated by the reduced levels of ATP and GTP has been described in several studies on infectious diseases and endotoxemia16,17,18. Reduced ATP levels in blood and various organs, including the liver, have been previously associated with influenza virus infection in a mouse model16. Decreased GTP levels have been shown in the lung tissues of rabbits treated with bacterial endotoxin lipopolysaccharide17. Increases in the serum levels of hypoxanthine and inosine have also been reported in patients with primary dengue virus infection at the febrile stage, suggesting an imbalance of ATP and/or GTP synthesis and degradation during the acute stage of the dengue fever18. These studies and ours indicate that regulatory energy depletion is a common symptom of infectious diseases.
- rapjr9 2y ago
  It's been known for a long time and is called post-viral syndrome and post-acute infection syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute_infection_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute_infection_syndrome https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619 Measles for example wipes out the immune systems memory of everything it has learned to defend against, leaving people newly vulnerable to everything they were immune to before: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211112-the-people-with-immune-amnesia https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211112-the-people-with-... There's a good chance that a lot of the "mystery diseases" are due to longer lasting damage from viruses, to organs and to the immune system, including ordinary colds and flu. Colds and flu are probably spread via the air also, yet this also remains unstudied (otherwise known as "there is no evidence") and hospitals don't take precautions for most patients, probably because the cost would be large to treat the air in all hospital rooms. It would mean ending practices like putting two patients in each room as well. I think that in the past a lot was overlooked as being too complex to deal with ("we can't cure flu, it mutates too fast") or too costly (but so was mapping DNA), or both (drugs personalized to each persons DNA) so a certain amount of death and disability was allowed and drugs and surgery statistically only work for some people (see "number needed to treat", NNT). Now we have better tools and understanding and these things should change.
  - DANmode 2y ago
    > because the cost would be large to treat the air in all hospital rooms. It would not. Compared to the rest of hospital maintenance costs, UV-C hydrogen peroxide generators for the HVAC system are cheap, and effective.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
MrVandemar 2y ago
I've heard Covid referred to in some quarters as "aerosolised HIV", which should be at least taken seriously, even if it is (possibly) overly alarmist. It's certainly easier to catch than HIV. While it's useful to have a distinct name for the virus/disease, it really should have been called what it is: It's SARS-CoV-2 not Covid. SARS: severe acute respiratory syndrome. I wear a n95 mask at work (medical practice) and I consistently wear one in shops, especially shopping centres. It's kept me safe so far.
- asynchronous 2y ago
  You’re saying you haven’t caught covid yet? That’s quite the claim. I’d suggest you just never had symptoms when you contracted.
  - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - MrVandemar 2y ago
    Covid 0 right here. I work in a medical practice staffed by sane people so we had excellent infection control and procedures from even before the pandemic, and just doubled down on it. I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I'm an introvert and seldom socialise. My SO is susceptible to respiratory infections which motivates me to keep as safe as possible. I haven't even had a cold.
- floren 2y ago
  > I've heard Covid referred to in some quarters as "aerosolised HIV", which should be at least taken seriously, even if it is (possibly) overly alarmist. I've heard it too and it's definitely one of the more deranged takes I've run into.
  - MrVandemar 2y ago
    To be clear, I do find it alarmist, but I take it seriously in the sense that it's definitely clear that Sars-cov-2 isn't "just a cold", and it's perhaps promotes a more healthy and cautious attitude to the virus in the face of the dangerous community apathy and dismissal, even in medical spaces.
Spod_Gaju 2y ago
[flagged]
- iamthirsty 2y ago
  I had COVID five times over the past four years. Last three times barely any symptoms. > It’s kind Wrong to say that Covid causes these things. Because if Covid alone caused these issues then everyone would have these issues after Infected. However, this is not sound logic. As stated in the study, it causes these different issues in some percentage of cases, not all.

vundercind 2y ago

I suspect lots of viruses do tons of long-term damage in at least some cases, but it’s just less-studied or comes up less in the media. Flu, colds, hand and foot, all that stuff. Though even allowing that, it’s still possible Covid-19 is worse than most viruses, as far as that sort of damage goes.

jerlam 2y ago
Even if Covid-19 was similar in terms of causing damage, its high transmissibility and mutability means that it's worse on a population level.
- nostrebored 2y ago
  That's not true, as you have no idea what the distribution of complications is for almost any illness... you need to understand the complication distribution and the transmissibility in order to judge impact.
  - graeme 2y ago
    They were speaking hypothetically. Even if denotes a scenario where the impact per infection is equal. In such a scenario Covid has worse impact due to the higher transmissibility. People seem to get it every 6-12 months. Flu infection is much less frequent.
    - taeric 2y ago
      I think the flu data is somewhat difficult here. Most people do not refer to having had it if they didn't get sick. Yet, studies are showing from a third to a half of people with the flu will be asymptomatic. Which, is kind of terrifying to me.
      - graeme 2y ago
        True, but Covid also has plenty of asymptomatic or low symptomatic cases. I’ve known a few who tested positive while reporting no symptoms. A Chinese field study estimated people got the flu once every five years. It is simply much less contagious. Flu collapsed globally when countries put in place Covid precautions. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-31698038.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/health-31698038.amp
        taeric 2y ago
        Latest study I saw on flu was about 10% of people get it each season. And there was another study showing that families with toddlers are basically always exposed. COVID does follow the same general rates of corona viruses, from what I remember. Which is to say it is higher than flu. So, I am not trying to downplay that.
        graeme 2y ago
        If 10% get it then you'd get it roughly once in every ten years.
        taeric 2y ago
        I'm very hesitant to extrapolate from those numbers. Often times they will use that as "per exposure" number. Such that it will often be far higher than you'd take from a naive reading. Sadly, I don't remember where I saw that number, so can't check up on it. That said, feels very in the weeds here. My stance is largely to have as much patience with folks as can be. I don't personally go through as much effort as many do, but I see no reason for that to be something to get upset over, either.
    - nostrebored 2y ago
      Your assumption is that the impact per infection is equal or worse. I think that there's no real basis to assume that, especially when young. I would expect the distribution of flu complications (externally validated, not based on self-reports) is actually worse.
Spod_Gaju 2y ago
[flagged]
- pfdietz 2y ago
  EBV is liked to many other diseases. To quote wikipedia: "EBV has also been implicated in several other diseases, including Burkitt's lymphoma,[58] hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis,[59] Hodgkin's lymphoma,[60] stomach cancer,[12][61] nasopharyngeal carcinoma,[62] multiple sclerosis,[15][16][63][17] and lymphomatoid granulomatosis.[64]" Burkitt's lymphoma is an oddball cancer in which growth is so fast treatment should begin almost immediately.
  - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
    Yes, and we should also expect a heightened rate of a lot of these oddball diseases after Covid. Frankly, I’m expecting a huge rise in the rate of Early onset Alzheimer’s.
- graeme 2y ago
  Covid actually reactivates EBV. Different etiologies can have the same symptoms and it is silly to suggest there is no difference between diseases. They’ve found tests which can distinguish long Covid. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10292739/#:~:text=Individuals%20with%20underlying%20medical%20conditions,may%20contribute%20to%20associated%20symptoms https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10292739/#:~:te....
  - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
    Covid doesn’t reactivate the Epstein-Barr virus. What it does is it weaken the immune system further by depleting ATP and GTP. That weakening of the immune system stops our immune system from suppressing EBV. Because exercise alone can weaken the immune system enough to Reactivate viruses.
    - r2_pilot 2y ago
      Thankfully exercise can also help strengthen the immune system. (source: I've been exercising a lot lately after years of feeling like I had chronic fatigue - more accurately it seems to have been sleep apnea - and have had 3 diagnosed cases of mono in my life)
Animats 2y ago
The big 2024 National Academies consensus paper says that they see similar long term damage from chronic fatigue syndrome and several rare diseases, but don't mention this as an outcome from more common viruses.[1] (Skip ahead to the summary). The big open question is cumulative damage from multiple COVID-19 infections.[2] There are now many people who have had COVID more than once. (US: 60% at least once, maybe 11% more than once.) A few people have had it many more times, but that seems to involve some pre-existing condition. A VA study of older veterans indicates that cumulative damage is real in older adults. As time goes on, there will be more previously healthy people who have had COVID multiple times, and this question will be answered the hard way. [1] https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/27756/chapter/1 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/27756/chapter/1 [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/well/live/covid-reinfection.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/well/live/covid-reinfecti...
- Spod_Gaju 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - iamthirsty 2y ago
    > If you cannot replenish this ATP and GTP you’ll be weaker the next time you get an infection and be sicker in general. This is wrong. You're all over this thread spreading incorrect information.
    - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
      are you calling the prestigious Scientific journal Nature wrong? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67879-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67879-6 Energy depletion indicated by the reduced levels of ATP and GTP has been described in several studies on infectious diseases and endotoxemia16,17,18. Reduced ATP levels in blood and various organs, including the liver, have been previously associated with influenza virus infection in a mouse model16. Decreased GTP levels have been shown in the lung tissues of rabbits treated with bacterial endotoxin lipopolysaccharide17. Increases in the serum levels of hypoxanthine and inosine have also been reported in patients with primary dengue virus infection at the febrile stage, suggesting an imbalance of ATP and/or GTP synthesis and degradation during the acute stage of the dengue fever18. These studies and ours indicate that regulatory energy depletion is a common symptom of infectious diseases.
rapjr9 2y ago
It's been known for a long time and is called post-viral syndrome and post-acute infection syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute_infection_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute_infection_syndrome https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619 https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619 Measles for example wipes out the immune systems memory of everything it has learned to defend against, leaving people newly vulnerable to everything they were immune to before: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211112-the-people-with-immune-amnesia https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211112-the-people-with-... There's a good chance that a lot of the "mystery diseases" are due to longer lasting damage from viruses, to organs and to the immune system, including ordinary colds and flu. Colds and flu are probably spread via the air also, yet this also remains unstudied (otherwise known as "there is no evidence") and hospitals don't take precautions for most patients, probably because the cost would be large to treat the air in all hospital rooms. It would mean ending practices like putting two patients in each room as well. I think that in the past a lot was overlooked as being too complex to deal with ("we can't cure flu, it mutates too fast") or too costly (but so was mapping DNA), or both (drugs personalized to each persons DNA) so a certain amount of death and disability was allowed and drugs and surgery statistically only work for some people (see "number needed to treat", NNT). Now we have better tools and understanding and these things should change.
- DANmode 2y ago
  > because the cost would be large to treat the air in all hospital rooms. It would not. Compared to the rest of hospital maintenance costs, UV-C hydrogen peroxide generators for the HVAC system are cheap, and effective.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

MrVandemar 2y ago

I've heard Covid referred to in some quarters as "aerosolised HIV", which should be at least taken seriously, even if it is (possibly) overly alarmist. It's certainly easier to catch than HIV. While it's useful to have a distinct name for the virus/disease, it really should have been called what it is: It's SARS-CoV-2 not Covid. SARS: severe acute respiratory syndrome. I wear a n95 mask at work (medical practice) and I consistently wear one in shops, especially shopping centres. It's kept me safe so far.

asynchronous 2y ago
You’re saying you haven’t caught covid yet? That’s quite the claim. I’d suggest you just never had symptoms when you contracted.
- Spod_Gaju 2y ago
  [flagged]
- MrVandemar 2y ago
  Covid 0 right here. I work in a medical practice staffed by sane people so we had excellent infection control and procedures from even before the pandemic, and just doubled down on it. I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I'm an introvert and seldom socialise. My SO is susceptible to respiratory infections which motivates me to keep as safe as possible. I haven't even had a cold.
floren 2y ago
> I've heard Covid referred to in some quarters as "aerosolised HIV", which should be at least taken seriously, even if it is (possibly) overly alarmist. I've heard it too and it's definitely one of the more deranged takes I've run into.
- MrVandemar 2y ago
  To be clear, I do find it alarmist, but I take it seriously in the sense that it's definitely clear that Sars-cov-2 isn't "just a cold", and it's perhaps promotes a more healthy and cautious attitude to the virus in the face of the dangerous community apathy and dismissal, even in medical spaces.

Spod_Gaju 2y ago

[flagged]

iamthirsty 2y ago
I had COVID five times over the past four years. Last three times barely any symptoms. > It’s kind Wrong to say that Covid causes these things. Because if Covid alone caused these issues then everyone would have these issues after Infected. However, this is not sound logic. As stated in the study, it causes these different issues in some percentage of cases, not all.