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The Japanese have already been concerned by this problem for a few years. Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn co

The Japanese have already been concerned by this problem for a few years. Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn completely upon reentry. The first such wooden satellite is planned to be launched in September. It is intended mainly for collecting data about the behavior of wood in the outer space, e.g. on wood expansion, contraction and degradation, along with internal temperature and electronic equipment performance. An alternative to wood would be the use of synthetic polymers, but those are typically more sensitive to radiation, so more research would be needed for finding a suitable plastic and appropriate additives to decrease the radiation sensitivity. Wood or plastic would not be suitable for ships hosting humans, because they are not hermetic, but they may be an acceptable choice for satellites with a short lifetime and with much more relaxed constraints for the composition and pressure of the internal atmosphere (which may not be needed at all, e.g. when the internally produced heat reaches the external radiant cooling surfaces through solid paths or through pipes with circulant liquid).

elil17 2y ago
That would be so awesome! Reminds me of the sci-fi book “Children of Time”
- RALaBarge 2y ago
  From the science we do on spider silk, who knows...we could one day see a Spider(Portiid)-derived hull cladding to fit around the lumber!
- will1am 2y ago
  Yeah, the book has thought-provoking take on evolution
IshKebab 2y ago
What about something like carbon fibre?
- dr_orpheus 2y ago
  It is used quite a bit in the space industry already. But it is more expensive so it is usually confined to applications where you really need the weight savings, or you need something with a more controlled coefficient of thermal expansion. Thermal expansion of carbon fiber is small so you get less mismatch when you use it with things like optics or as part of solar panels. And a common place you find carbon fiber in the space industry is actually carbon fiber skinned aluminum honeycomb panels. Very light and very stiff. https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/shop/plates-panels-angles/sandwich-panels/honeycomb-core-sandwich-panels https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/shop/plates-panels-angles...
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Fibreglass? I'm surprised raw material/machining cost is a significant concern when you're making satellites.
mafuku 2y ago
So the Hearthians' timber ships made sense after all
genpfault 2y ago
> Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn completely upon reentry. "When finishing the surface of your wooden satellite you must, of course, use an orbital sander."[1] [1]: https://www.metafilter.com/203958/Yes-they-wood-build-a-satellite-out-of-that-material#8568750 https://www.metafilter.com/203958/Yes-they-wood-build-a-sate...
- hunter2_ 2y ago
  Could just send it into the astral plane.
- wil421 2y ago
  Just don’t use a random orbital sander or you may lose your satellite.
observationist 2y ago
Nanocrystalline cellulose (NCC) could be a great constituent component of a composite material. Not only would it burn, but anything that doesn't burn and makes it to the surface is biodegradable; there's lots of stuff that eats cellulose. NCC can be formed into highly strong and rigid structural pieces, or combined with carbon fiber, fiberglass, hemp, or other fibers to create ultra strong and durable composite material. high mechanical strength, with a tensile modulus of approximately 150 GPa and a modulus of elasticity ranging from 18 to 50 GPa. CNCs also exhibit excellent thermal stability, undergoing gradual thermal transitions and decomposition between 150 °C and 600 °C
tivert 2y ago
> Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn completely upon reentry. I like how the Google image search for "japan wooden satellite" (https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+wooden+satellite&udm=2 https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+wooden+satellite&udm=2) is gummed up with garbage AI generated images of satellites with wooden solar panels. This wooden Borg cube with off-kilter panels is my favorite: https://indianspacetechnology.com/wooden-satellite-lignosat-spacepollution/ https://indianspacetechnology.com/wooden-satellite-lignosat-.... This one is also great: https://www.universetoday.com/161473/building-a-satellite-out-of-wood-use-magnolia/ https://www.universetoday.com/161473/building-a-satellite-ou.... I guess the satellite went back in time to the Cretaceous period, where North America had an inland sea? The future is looking bright, guys!
- quasse 2y ago
  Kagi returns basically the same result set including the AI generated slop, which is disappointing.
  - tivert 2y ago
    I'm not sure how they could do any better. AI is enabling the degradation of the public web, and that's what they search. Pretty soon the web's going to be one big Mikkelsen Twins ebook.
    - lstamour 2y ago
      Well, here's an actual photo they could have used: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/05/29/japan/science-health/world-first-wooden-satellite/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/05/29/japan/science-h... And here is an earlier rendering from 2021: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/12/31/national/japan-wooden-satellite/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/12/31/national/japan-... And it only took a simple Google search to find, from a reputable news source.
      - banku_brougham 2y ago
will1am 2y ago
But sill wood usage does have an impact on the environment too
- blackguardx 2y ago
  So does corn. In fact much of the wood used in construction in the US is grown like corn in a cornfield.
- whatevaa 2y ago
  Everything you do does. Question is how much.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I assume you mean the high atmospheric particulate. It would be interesting to see how this compares
pdabbadabba 2y ago
It's an interesting effort, but the supposed issue addressed in the paper is not that aluminum does not fully burn up during reentry. It generally does, just like wood. It's that, when it does so, it releases alumina. Maybe this is better because the vaporized wood would. not release any alumina. But you'd then have to look at the impact of wood's combustion products when introduced directly to the upper atmosphere. I'm not sure anyone has seriously studied that question.
- everforward 2y ago
  Burning pure wood doesn’t produce anything terribly exotic. We know what most of the byproducts do because they occur naturally and we’ve already studied their effects. Namely H2O, CO2, CO, and solid carbon with traces of nitrogen and sulfur oxides, along with metallic micronutrients (at a very small scale). We already know how the major byproducts interact, I think it would be a question of modeling what happens when we start adding them to the mesosphere. Models aren’t perfect, but it’s not like we have absolutely no idea how the components interact.
therobots927 2y ago
Leave it to Japan to make a satellite out of wood. So cool. Their innovations in woodworking are very impressive. I’d love to see a picture.

elil17 2y ago

That would be so awesome! Reminds me of the sci-fi book “Children of Time”

RALaBarge 2y ago
From the science we do on spider silk, who knows...we could one day see a Spider(Portiid)-derived hull cladding to fit around the lumber!
will1am 2y ago
Yeah, the book has thought-provoking take on evolution

IshKebab 2y ago

What about something like carbon fibre?

dr_orpheus 2y ago
It is used quite a bit in the space industry already. But it is more expensive so it is usually confined to applications where you really need the weight savings, or you need something with a more controlled coefficient of thermal expansion. Thermal expansion of carbon fiber is small so you get less mismatch when you use it with things like optics or as part of solar panels. And a common place you find carbon fiber in the space industry is actually carbon fiber skinned aluminum honeycomb panels. Very light and very stiff. https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/shop/plates-panels-angles/sandwich-panels/honeycomb-core-sandwich-panels https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/shop/plates-panels-angles...
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Fibreglass? I'm surprised raw material/machining cost is a significant concern when you're making satellites.

mafuku 2y ago

So the Hearthians' timber ships made sense after all

genpfault 2y ago

> Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn completely upon reentry. "When finishing the surface of your wooden satellite you must, of course, use an orbital sander."[1] [1]: https://www.metafilter.com/203958/Yes-they-wood-build-a-satellite-out-of-that-material#8568750 https://www.metafilter.com/203958/Yes-they-wood-build-a-sate...

hunter2_ 2y ago
Could just send it into the astral plane.
wil421 2y ago
Just don’t use a random orbital sander or you may lose your satellite.

observationist 2y ago

Nanocrystalline cellulose (NCC) could be a great constituent component of a composite material. Not only would it burn, but anything that doesn't burn and makes it to the surface is biodegradable; there's lots of stuff that eats cellulose. NCC can be formed into highly strong and rigid structural pieces, or combined with carbon fiber, fiberglass, hemp, or other fibers to create ultra strong and durable composite material. high mechanical strength, with a tensile modulus of approximately 150 GPa and a modulus of elasticity ranging from 18 to 50 GPa. CNCs also exhibit excellent thermal stability, undergoing gradual thermal transitions and decomposition between 150 °C and 600 °C

tivert 2y ago

> Their solution has been to develop satellites made mostly of wood, which will burn completely upon reentry. I like how the Google image search for "japan wooden satellite" (https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+wooden+satellite&udm=2 https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+wooden+satellite&udm=2) is gummed up with garbage AI generated images of satellites with wooden solar panels. This wooden Borg cube with off-kilter panels is my favorite: https://indianspacetechnology.com/wooden-satellite-lignosat-spacepollution/ https://indianspacetechnology.com/wooden-satellite-lignosat-.... This one is also great: https://www.universetoday.com/161473/building-a-satellite-out-of-wood-use-magnolia/ https://www.universetoday.com/161473/building-a-satellite-ou.... I guess the satellite went back in time to the Cretaceous period, where North America had an inland sea? The future is looking bright, guys!

quasse 2y ago
Kagi returns basically the same result set including the AI generated slop, which is disappointing.
- tivert 2y ago
  I'm not sure how they could do any better. AI is enabling the degradation of the public web, and that's what they search. Pretty soon the web's going to be one big Mikkelsen Twins ebook.
  - lstamour 2y ago
    Well, here's an actual photo they could have used: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/05/29/japan/science-health/world-first-wooden-satellite/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/05/29/japan/science-h... And here is an earlier rendering from 2021: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/12/31/national/japan-wooden-satellite/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/12/31/national/japan-... And it only took a simple Google search to find, from a reputable news source.
    - banku_brougham 2y ago

will1am 2y ago

But sill wood usage does have an impact on the environment too

blackguardx 2y ago
So does corn. In fact much of the wood used in construction in the US is grown like corn in a cornfield.
whatevaa 2y ago
Everything you do does. Question is how much.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I assume you mean the high atmospheric particulate. It would be interesting to see how this compares

pdabbadabba 2y ago

It's an interesting effort, but the supposed issue addressed in the paper is not that aluminum does not fully burn up during reentry. It generally does, just like wood. It's that, when it does so, it releases alumina. Maybe this is better because the vaporized wood would. not release any alumina. But you'd then have to look at the impact of wood's combustion products when introduced directly to the upper atmosphere. I'm not sure anyone has seriously studied that question.

everforward 2y ago
Burning pure wood doesn’t produce anything terribly exotic. We know what most of the byproducts do because they occur naturally and we’ve already studied their effects. Namely H2O, CO2, CO, and solid carbon with traces of nitrogen and sulfur oxides, along with metallic micronutrients (at a very small scale). We already know how the major byproducts interact, I think it would be a question of modeling what happens when we start adding them to the mesosphere. Models aren’t perfect, but it’s not like we have absolutely no idea how the components interact.

therobots927 2y ago

Leave it to Japan to make a satellite out of wood. So cool. Their innovations in woodworking are very impressive. I’d love to see a picture.