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Startup idea: online text editor that logs every keystroke and blockchains a hash of all logs every day. If you're accused of AI use, you can pull up the whole

Startup idea: online text editor that logs every keystroke and blockchains a hash of all logs every day. If you're accused of AI use, you can pull up the whole painstaking writing process and prove it's real.

leetrout 2y ago
I suspect people think there is similar value in the constant screenshotting proposed my Microsoft
meowface 2y ago
There's no doubt you can write a wrapper for an LLM that can realistically mimic the same process. Cat-and-mouse isn't the answer, here.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Yes it is like those tools that make digital documents look like they were scanned.
- moduspol 2y ago
  Or just have an LLM generate it in a separate window and type it in yourself. No special tech required.
column 2y ago
google docs already logs every keystroke
coliveira 2y ago
In other words, spend more money to prove that you're doing your work. Way to go for a world where the value of work is zero.
reportgunner 2y ago
Which part makes it non fakeable by AI ? Do you think it's the blockchain ?
shiftingleft 2y ago
I doubt that this is a problem in need of a technical solution. In any case, this system can easily be circumvented by emulating the key presses on that website.
keiferski 2y ago
It would be better and slightly less invasive to have a webcam watching your hands, I think.
cesarb 2y ago
> online text editor that logs every keystroke and blockchains a hash of all logs Do you really think it would help? The kind of people who believe an "AI detector" works will just ignore your complicated attempts to prove otherwise; it's the word of your complex system (which requires manual analysis) against the word of the "AI detector" (a simple system in which you just have to press a button and it says "guilty" or "not guilty"). The more complicated you make your system (and adding a blockchain makes it even more complicated!), and the more it needs human judgment (someone has to review the keystrokes, to make sure it's not the writer manually retyping the output of a LLM), the less it will be believed.
viraptor 2y ago
The blockchain part is silly, because timestamping services exist without it https://www.sectigo.com/resource-library/time-stamping-server https://www.sectigo.com/resource-library/time-stamping-serve... The rest is silly, because you can emulate the whole writing process by combining backtracking https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.05426 https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.05426 and a rewriting/rewording loop. With not much effort we can make LLM output look incredibly painstaking.
- AdhemarVandamme 2y ago
  > The blockchain part is silly, because timestamping services exist without it Yet the timestamping service which I trust the most, is the Blockchain-based one. https://opentimestamps.org/ https://opentimestamps.org/
perihelions 2y ago
That's a dehumanizing system. Have we lost our way, HN? Are we so immersed in the bleakness of tech, it comes so naturally for us, to propose "hey, let's create surveillance machines to perpetually watch people working, for the rest of their productive lives" and it's something we have to pause and think about? Let's not build Hell on Earth for whatever reason it momentarily seems to make business sense.
- portaouflop 2y ago
  Wait so you are saying Hell on Earth would be good for business?
  - lobsterthief 2y ago
    _Synergies rapidly moving into alignment_
  - throwaway173738 2y ago
    We could make a killing selling companies the software and then again charging “privacy fees” to users. We have a moral duty to our shareholders to do this as soon as possible.
- CyberDildonics 2y ago
  They were talking about logging your own encrypted keystrokes and being in control of them. This would be dehumanizing? This means 'hacker news has lost their way'? Logging your own keystrokes and encrypting it is 'bleakness of tech'? This is a 'surveillance machine'? What are you talking about?
  - perihelions 2y ago
    If you feel compelled to surveil yourself so as not to be arbitrarily fired by an algorithm, I do consider that dystopian; yes. You're not "in control" of data you're expected to turn over to your employer to keep your job. Worse still if these keyloggers become normalized, and they'll shift from being "optional" to "professionally expected" to "mandated". This (IMHO) is an example of an attempt at a technical solution for a purely social problem—the problem that employers are permitted to make arbitrary firing decisions on the basis of an opaque algorithm that makes untraceable errors. Technical solutions are not the answer to this. There should be legally-mandated presumptions in favor of the worker—presumptions in the direction of innocence, privacy, and dignity. This stuff's already illegal on several levels, in some of the more pro-worker countries. It's illegal to make hiring/firing decisions solely on the basis of an algorithm output (EU-wide, IIRC?). And in several EU countries it's illegal to have surveillance cameras pointed at workers without an exceptional reason—and it's not something a worker can consent/opt-in to, it's an unwaivable right. I believe—well, I hope—the same laws extend to software surveillance like keyloggers.
SkyBelow 2y ago
If you are accused of using AI, is proving you different really a defense? It changes the trespass from making something using AI to making something that looks like AI was used, but with the extent that some subcultures are against the use of AI, just appearing to have used it even with proof you didn't isn't going to be accepted. So much of the discussion focuses on the creators of works, but what about the changes in consumers, who seem to be splitting between those who don't mind AI and those who want to oppose anything involving AI (including merely looking like AI). Is there enough consumers in the group that opposes AI but is okay with AI looking content as long as it is proven not to be AI? "AI looking content" would be decided on an individual by individual basis, with some percentage using AI detection software in their decision making process, with that software being varying degrees of snake oil.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
Stupid startup killing idea: an open-source script that runs LLM in the background and streams its output as input events, so the idiotic keylogger thinks it's all written by hand. Just writing this down here instantly invalidates the premise. An overkill variant to rub salt in the wounds of duped investors: make the script control a finger bot on an X/Y harness, so it literally presses the physical keys of a physical keyboard according to LLM output. Bonus points for making a Kickstarter out of it and getting some YouTubers to talk about it (even as a joke) - then sitting back to watch as some factories in China go brrrr, and dropshippers flood the market with your "solution" before your fundraising campaign even ends.
- meindnoch 2y ago
  >An overkill variant to rub salt in the wounds of duped investors: make the script control a finger bot on an X/Y harness, so it literally presses the physical keys of a physical keyboard according to LLM output. That's how the first automated trading firms operated in the 80s. NASDAQ required all trades to be input via physical terminals, so they build an upside down "keyboard" with linear actuators in place of the keys, that would be then placed on top of the terminal keyboard, and could input trades automatically. https://www.npr.org/2015/04/23/401781306/we-built-a-robot-that-types-the-man-behind-computerized-stock-trading https://www.npr.org/2015/04/23/401781306/we-built-a-robot-th...
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    That article is infuriating. Classic 'it was great when I did it, now it's gone too far.'
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      It's often enough the case. Our own industry has plenty of examples of things that are net win when they exist in small quantities, or available to small group of people, that rapidly become a net tragedy when scaled up and available to everyone. I keep pondering, if the ethically correct choice needs to always be either everyone having something, or no one at all?
meindnoch 2y ago
Startup idea: keep humans in liquid-filled pods, connecting sensors to their central nervous system, and record every nerve impulse they generate. This way we can be 100% sure that those nerve impulses were generated by humans, and not an AI.
- lobsterthief 2y ago
  This would sell well just outside of the Matrix
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
red_admiral 2y ago
I mean, you have both "blockchain" and "AI" in your startup idea. VC money can't be far away :)
Lonota 2y ago
>blockchains Youre right, that is idiotic. Ill offer $500m for it if we go by VC standards

leetrout 2y ago

I suspect people think there is similar value in the constant screenshotting proposed my Microsoft

meowface 2y ago

There's no doubt you can write a wrapper for an LLM that can realistically mimic the same process. Cat-and-mouse isn't the answer, here.

prmoustache 2y ago
Yes it is like those tools that make digital documents look like they were scanned.
moduspol 2y ago
Or just have an LLM generate it in a separate window and type it in yourself. No special tech required.

column 2y ago

google docs already logs every keystroke

coliveira 2y ago

In other words, spend more money to prove that you're doing your work. Way to go for a world where the value of work is zero.

reportgunner 2y ago

Which part makes it non fakeable by AI ? Do you think it's the blockchain ?

shiftingleft 2y ago

I doubt that this is a problem in need of a technical solution. In any case, this system can easily be circumvented by emulating the key presses on that website.

keiferski 2y ago

It would be better and slightly less invasive to have a webcam watching your hands, I think.

cesarb 2y ago

> online text editor that logs every keystroke and blockchains a hash of all logs Do you really think it would help? The kind of people who believe an "AI detector" works will just ignore your complicated attempts to prove otherwise; it's the word of your complex system (which requires manual analysis) against the word of the "AI detector" (a simple system in which you just have to press a button and it says "guilty" or "not guilty"). The more complicated you make your system (and adding a blockchain makes it even more complicated!), and the more it needs human judgment (someone has to review the keystrokes, to make sure it's not the writer manually retyping the output of a LLM), the less it will be believed.

viraptor 2y ago

The blockchain part is silly, because timestamping services exist without it https://www.sectigo.com/resource-library/time-stamping-server https://www.sectigo.com/resource-library/time-stamping-serve... The rest is silly, because you can emulate the whole writing process by combining backtracking https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.05426 https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.05426 and a rewriting/rewording loop. With not much effort we can make LLM output look incredibly painstaking.

AdhemarVandamme 2y ago
> The blockchain part is silly, because timestamping services exist without it Yet the timestamping service which I trust the most, is the Blockchain-based one. https://opentimestamps.org/ https://opentimestamps.org/

perihelions 2y ago

That's a dehumanizing system. Have we lost our way, HN? Are we so immersed in the bleakness of tech, it comes so naturally for us, to propose "hey, let's create surveillance machines to perpetually watch people working, for the rest of their productive lives" and it's something we have to pause and think about? Let's not build Hell on Earth for whatever reason it momentarily seems to make business sense.

portaouflop 2y ago
Wait so you are saying Hell on Earth would be good for business?
- lobsterthief 2y ago
  _Synergies rapidly moving into alignment_
- throwaway173738 2y ago
  We could make a killing selling companies the software and then again charging “privacy fees” to users. We have a moral duty to our shareholders to do this as soon as possible.
CyberDildonics 2y ago
They were talking about logging your own encrypted keystrokes and being in control of them. This would be dehumanizing? This means 'hacker news has lost their way'? Logging your own keystrokes and encrypting it is 'bleakness of tech'? This is a 'surveillance machine'? What are you talking about?
- perihelions 2y ago
  If you feel compelled to surveil yourself so as not to be arbitrarily fired by an algorithm, I do consider that dystopian; yes. You're not "in control" of data you're expected to turn over to your employer to keep your job. Worse still if these keyloggers become normalized, and they'll shift from being "optional" to "professionally expected" to "mandated". This (IMHO) is an example of an attempt at a technical solution for a purely social problem—the problem that employers are permitted to make arbitrary firing decisions on the basis of an opaque algorithm that makes untraceable errors. Technical solutions are not the answer to this. There should be legally-mandated presumptions in favor of the worker—presumptions in the direction of innocence, privacy, and dignity. This stuff's already illegal on several levels, in some of the more pro-worker countries. It's illegal to make hiring/firing decisions solely on the basis of an algorithm output (EU-wide, IIRC?). And in several EU countries it's illegal to have surveillance cameras pointed at workers without an exceptional reason—and it's not something a worker can consent/opt-in to, it's an unwaivable right. I believe—well, I hope—the same laws extend to software surveillance like keyloggers.

SkyBelow 2y ago

If you are accused of using AI, is proving you different really a defense? It changes the trespass from making something using AI to making something that looks like AI was used, but with the extent that some subcultures are against the use of AI, just appearing to have used it even with proof you didn't isn't going to be accepted. So much of the discussion focuses on the creators of works, but what about the changes in consumers, who seem to be splitting between those who don't mind AI and those who want to oppose anything involving AI (including merely looking like AI). Is there enough consumers in the group that opposes AI but is okay with AI looking content as long as it is proven not to be AI? "AI looking content" would be decided on an individual by individual basis, with some percentage using AI detection software in their decision making process, with that software being varying degrees of snake oil.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

Stupid startup killing idea: an open-source script that runs LLM in the background and streams its output as input events, so the idiotic keylogger thinks it's all written by hand. Just writing this down here instantly invalidates the premise. An overkill variant to rub salt in the wounds of duped investors: make the script control a finger bot on an X/Y harness, so it literally presses the physical keys of a physical keyboard according to LLM output. Bonus points for making a Kickstarter out of it and getting some YouTubers to talk about it (even as a joke) - then sitting back to watch as some factories in China go brrrr, and dropshippers flood the market with your "solution" before your fundraising campaign even ends.

meindnoch 2y ago
>An overkill variant to rub salt in the wounds of duped investors: make the script control a finger bot on an X/Y harness, so it literally presses the physical keys of a physical keyboard according to LLM output. That's how the first automated trading firms operated in the 80s. NASDAQ required all trades to be input via physical terminals, so they build an upside down "keyboard" with linear actuators in place of the keys, that would be then placed on top of the terminal keyboard, and could input trades automatically. https://www.npr.org/2015/04/23/401781306/we-built-a-robot-that-types-the-man-behind-computerized-stock-trading https://www.npr.org/2015/04/23/401781306/we-built-a-robot-th...
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  That article is infuriating. Classic 'it was great when I did it, now it's gone too far.'
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    It's often enough the case. Our own industry has plenty of examples of things that are net win when they exist in small quantities, or available to small group of people, that rapidly become a net tragedy when scaled up and available to everyone. I keep pondering, if the ethically correct choice needs to always be either everyone having something, or no one at all?

meindnoch 2y ago

Startup idea: keep humans in liquid-filled pods, connecting sensors to their central nervous system, and record every nerve impulse they generate. This way we can be 100% sure that those nerve impulses were generated by humans, and not an AI.

lobsterthief 2y ago
This would sell well just outside of the Matrix

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

red_admiral 2y ago

I mean, you have both "blockchain" and "AI" in your startup idea. VC money can't be far away :)

Lonota 2y ago

>blockchains Youre right, that is idiotic. Ill offer $500m for it if we go by VC standards