6 ms·

A new map of medieval London

140 points by domh 2y ago

ggm 2y ago
Enormously powerful but also.. enormously confusing and slow to render on a tablet. I think it should all be there but perhaps less could be shown at first? Great to scroll around in but.. laggy
- ako 2y ago
  No problems on my an iPad Air m1, seems there is a purpose after all for all the cpu power in tablets…
- mxz3000 2y ago
  renders fine on my 4y old android phone
qingcharles 2y ago
Here's the direct links to the digital maps: https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/medieval-london-1270-1300 https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/medieval-london-... https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/tudor-map-1520 https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/tudor-map-1520 You have to click the checkbox "Use this overlay" to view them.
- mhandley 2y ago
  Looking at the Tudor map, one thing that really stands out is how many abbeys and monasteries there were (shown in pink), and how much of London was taken up by them.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    Those abbeys and monasteries would've (as part of their endowments) owned large chunks of the agricultural land outside the city as well. I wonder what a modern map, showing all land parcels owned or controlled by an entity with a City address, might look like?
    - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
      Fun fact: Trinity College of the University of Cambridge has a 999-year lease on the land that the O2 Arena sits on [1][2]. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/29/oxford-and-cambridge-university-colleges-own-property-worth-35bn https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/29/oxford-and... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/09/trinity-college-cambridge-o2-dome https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/09/trinity-col...
    - dewey 2y ago
      Not entirely the same but related: https://whoownsengland.org/2017/04/17/the-thirty-landowners-who-own-half-a-county/ https://whoownsengland.org/2017/04/17/the-thirty-landowners-...
  - gilleain 2y ago
    Yes, not surprising that Henry VIII found the idea of dissolving them and taking all their stuff so attractive :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_monasteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_monasteries
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Well at the time you were looked at differently if you didn't show up at the mass. For a comparable neighborhood size they were much more easily filled at the time they are currently.
aussieguy1234 2y ago
Now we just need street view.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  True; get the cosplayers and ren faire people on it, stat? I was already happy to have ISS street view: https://www.google.com/maps/space/iss/@29.5602853,-95.0853914,2a,75y,223h,93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szChzPIAn4RIAAAQvxgbyEg!2e0!7i10000!8i5000 https://www.google.com/maps/space/iss/@29.5602853,-95.085391... (exercises: Find the ikon of Gagarin. Is the speed limit sign accurate?)
082349872349872 2y ago
I love that we're getting digital maps for earlier eras. What stories are set in XIII or XVI London that these might help clarify? A little while ago I was reading about Galois' death, and it's surprising how much* one can find online: maps taken near 1832 showing both that he didn't have to go far from the Latin Quarter to meet someone in a meadow at dawn, nor did the farmer who eventually brought him to the hospital (time recorded, ~9h30) have to travel far, either. One could probably even use a sunrise calculator to take the date and figure out an upper bound on how long he had been lying in the field. (this upper bound should be reasonably tight: the point of duelling at dawn is to have it done with before the farmers get to their fields) We're only missing the chat logs between ViveLaRépublique and Stephanie15 that might explain what he was doing out there in the first place... * the coroner's report not only contains what we would consider relevant detail about abdominal trauma, but also contains a detailed examination of his brain and skull structure?
- defrost 2y ago
  from: ViveLaRépublique @EvistePoly^5 #magicbulletcatchallenge from: Stephanie15 @ViveLaRépublique oopsFAIL delete ur account Addendum: too soon?
leoedin 2y ago
I was walking North through the back streets of the City just a few days ago - from London Bridge to London Wall. It's amazing that so much of my route - zigzagging left and right through various junctions and down alleys - is clearly visible on an 800 year old map. I suspect none of the buildings are the same, but the roads are still there.
- cco 2y ago
  That was by far my favorite part of visiting London, you could really feel and see how much of the city was still as it has been for a thousand years...just the penny rooms are now luxury flats.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  I remember reading about an archeological dig in an intersection in the old part of Damascus. They dug down though a few thousand years of accumulated soil and found nothing.
- mncharity 2y ago
  That reminds me of the trapezoidal Chrysler Building[1] in NYC, shaped by a plot boundary reflecting the pre-grid Boston Post Road[2] (only 2 weeks NYC-Boston!). The Road elsewheres reflects 1600's colonial improvements to the earlier Pequot Path, and influenced US1 et al. [1] https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/tag/chrysler-building-boston-post-road/ https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/tag/chrysler-building... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Post_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Post_Road
resuresu 2y ago
[dead]
robaato 2y ago
My aunt worked with Mary Lobel on the original Atlas (I inherited her copy) mainly as a "retirement project" - it was fascinating to see the research laid out on her table and the various sources that informed the whole exercise. Things like the details of a court case between neighbours indicated that XYZ street was 1 foot wider at a particular point than previously thought or similar findings. I remember at the time wondering why they couldn't publish just the maps as they were fascinating (with the academic papers that made up the rest of the Atlas). Fortunately, a decade or 2 later that's what they did.
roomey 2y ago
Is this could be linked with the Baroque cycle By Neil Stephenson it would be awesome, I was tying to find fleet ditch and couldn't see it!
- gilleain 2y ago
  So Fleet Street crosses what was the Fleet river, which ran North-South along the boundary of the City
frereubu 2y ago
The main feeling I have when seeing maps like this is how incredibly small the city was compared to the present day, and how much more open natural space there must have been across the country. The UK is a very densely populated country - 277 people per km² compared to the overall European average of 72 - and I can't help hankering after a time when nature would have been much more bountiful. (That hankering is of course significantly tempered by the lack of hygiene, anaesthetics, antibiotics, cosmopolitanism, etc, etc!)
- pyrale 2y ago
  More rural areas yes, but England has been shaped by human activities for a very long time. Rural areas are not more "natural" (as in free from human influence) than cities.
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    > Rural areas are not more "natural" (as in free from human influence) than cities. Yes, we have very little left of the primary forest that predated human colonisation over much of the British Isles. Areas that we now perceive as wild countryside are usually anything but. One example is those moorland uplands which (in Scotland) were the result of enforced clearances [0] between 1750 and 1850 and which are now often optimised for grouse shooting. The New Forest, my closest national park, is essentially William the Conqueror's hunting estate and where land use and ownership been very tightly controlled since then. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
  - frereubu 2y ago
    I certainly wasn't contending that current rural areas are more natural (Isabella Tree's book Wilding is really interesting on what "natural" would have meant in the very long term), but if you're talking about the 13th century - which is one of the maps mentioned above and the kind of timescale I was thinking of - then I'd contend those were much more natural compared to now.
    - 2y ago
sklargh 2y ago
There's something about Fridays and weekends at HN that always brings some form of utility for my historical BX (older version of D&D) group. Thanks for posting.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
reallyeli 2y ago
Nice, was getting sick of my old map of medieval London

140 points by domh 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

Enormously powerful but also.. enormously confusing and slow to render on a tablet. I think it should all be there but perhaps less could be shown at first? Great to scroll around in but.. laggy

ako 2y ago
No problems on my an iPad Air m1, seems there is a purpose after all for all the cpu power in tablets…
mxz3000 2y ago
renders fine on my 4y old android phone

qingcharles 2y ago

Here's the direct links to the digital maps: https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/medieval-london-1270-1300 https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/medieval-london-... https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/tudor-map-1520 https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/tudor-map-1520 You have to click the checkbox "Use this overlay" to view them.

mhandley 2y ago
Looking at the Tudor map, one thing that really stands out is how many abbeys and monasteries there were (shown in pink), and how much of London was taken up by them.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  Those abbeys and monasteries would've (as part of their endowments) owned large chunks of the agricultural land outside the city as well. I wonder what a modern map, showing all land parcels owned or controlled by an entity with a City address, might look like?
  - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
    Fun fact: Trinity College of the University of Cambridge has a 999-year lease on the land that the O2 Arena sits on [1][2]. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/29/oxford-and-cambridge-university-colleges-own-property-worth-35bn https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/29/oxford-and... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/09/trinity-college-cambridge-o2-dome https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/09/trinity-col...
  - dewey 2y ago
    Not entirely the same but related: https://whoownsengland.org/2017/04/17/the-thirty-landowners-who-own-half-a-county/ https://whoownsengland.org/2017/04/17/the-thirty-landowners-...
- gilleain 2y ago
  Yes, not surprising that Henry VIII found the idea of dissolving them and taking all their stuff so attractive :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_monasteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_monasteries
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Well at the time you were looked at differently if you didn't show up at the mass. For a comparable neighborhood size they were much more easily filled at the time they are currently.

aussieguy1234 2y ago

Now we just need street view.

082349872349872 2y ago
True; get the cosplayers and ren faire people on it, stat? I was already happy to have ISS street view: https://www.google.com/maps/space/iss/@29.5602853,-95.0853914,2a,75y,223h,93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szChzPIAn4RIAAAQvxgbyEg!2e0!7i10000!8i5000 https://www.google.com/maps/space/iss/@29.5602853,-95.085391... (exercises: Find the ikon of Gagarin. Is the speed limit sign accurate?)

082349872349872 2y ago

I love that we're getting digital maps for earlier eras. What stories are set in XIII or XVI London that these might help clarify? A little while ago I was reading about Galois' death, and it's surprising how much* one can find online: maps taken near 1832 showing both that he didn't have to go far from the Latin Quarter to meet someone in a meadow at dawn, nor did the farmer who eventually brought him to the hospital (time recorded, ~9h30) have to travel far, either. One could probably even use a sunrise calculator to take the date and figure out an upper bound on how long he had been lying in the field. (this upper bound should be reasonably tight: the point of duelling at dawn is to have it done with before the farmers get to their fields) We're only missing the chat logs between ViveLaRépublique and Stephanie15 that might explain what he was doing out there in the first place... * the coroner's report not only contains what we would consider relevant detail about abdominal trauma, but also contains a detailed examination of his brain and skull structure?

defrost 2y ago
from: ViveLaRépublique @EvistePoly^5 #magicbulletcatchallenge from: Stephanie15 @ViveLaRépublique oopsFAIL delete ur account Addendum: too soon?

leoedin 2y ago

I was walking North through the back streets of the City just a few days ago - from London Bridge to London Wall. It's amazing that so much of my route - zigzagging left and right through various junctions and down alleys - is clearly visible on an 800 year old map. I suspect none of the buildings are the same, but the roads are still there.

cco 2y ago
That was by far my favorite part of visiting London, you could really feel and see how much of the city was still as it has been for a thousand years...just the penny rooms are now luxury flats.
Gibbon1 2y ago
I remember reading about an archeological dig in an intersection in the old part of Damascus. They dug down though a few thousand years of accumulated soil and found nothing.
mncharity 2y ago
That reminds me of the trapezoidal Chrysler Building[1] in NYC, shaped by a plot boundary reflecting the pre-grid Boston Post Road[2] (only 2 weeks NYC-Boston!). The Road elsewheres reflects 1600's colonial improvements to the earlier Pequot Path, and influenced US1 et al. [1] https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/tag/chrysler-building-boston-post-road/ https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/tag/chrysler-building... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Post_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Post_Road

resuresu 2y ago

[dead]

robaato 2y ago

My aunt worked with Mary Lobel on the original Atlas (I inherited her copy) mainly as a "retirement project" - it was fascinating to see the research laid out on her table and the various sources that informed the whole exercise. Things like the details of a court case between neighbours indicated that XYZ street was 1 foot wider at a particular point than previously thought or similar findings. I remember at the time wondering why they couldn't publish just the maps as they were fascinating (with the academic papers that made up the rest of the Atlas). Fortunately, a decade or 2 later that's what they did.

roomey 2y ago

Is this could be linked with the Baroque cycle By Neil Stephenson it would be awesome, I was tying to find fleet ditch and couldn't see it!

gilleain 2y ago
So Fleet Street crosses what was the Fleet river, which ran North-South along the boundary of the City

frereubu 2y ago

The main feeling I have when seeing maps like this is how incredibly small the city was compared to the present day, and how much more open natural space there must have been across the country. The UK is a very densely populated country - 277 people per km² compared to the overall European average of 72 - and I can't help hankering after a time when nature would have been much more bountiful. (That hankering is of course significantly tempered by the lack of hygiene, anaesthetics, antibiotics, cosmopolitanism, etc, etc!)

pyrale 2y ago
More rural areas yes, but England has been shaped by human activities for a very long time. Rural areas are not more "natural" (as in free from human influence) than cities.
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  > Rural areas are not more "natural" (as in free from human influence) than cities. Yes, we have very little left of the primary forest that predated human colonisation over much of the British Isles. Areas that we now perceive as wild countryside are usually anything but. One example is those moorland uplands which (in Scotland) were the result of enforced clearances [0] between 1750 and 1850 and which are now often optimised for grouse shooting. The New Forest, my closest national park, is essentially William the Conqueror's hunting estate and where land use and ownership been very tightly controlled since then. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances
- frereubu 2y ago
  I certainly wasn't contending that current rural areas are more natural (Isabella Tree's book Wilding is really interesting on what "natural" would have meant in the very long term), but if you're talking about the 13th century - which is one of the maps mentioned above and the kind of timescale I was thinking of - then I'd contend those were much more natural compared to now.
  - 2y ago

sklargh 2y ago

There's something about Fridays and weekends at HN that always brings some form of utility for my historical BX (older version of D&D) group. Thanks for posting.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

reallyeli 2y ago

Nice, was getting sick of my old map of medieval London