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It’s a little off topic, but it’s probably a good thing that it’s not very accessible while it would be lithium. When they burn they are almost impossible to pu

by devjab 2y ago

It’s a little off topic, but it’s probably a good thing that it’s not very accessible while it would be lithium. When they burn they are almost impossible to put out. Which isn’t too much of an issue with your phone or other small appliances, but things like cars (and especially buses) are a real hazard. Maybe it’s not so much of an issue in the US where cities are designed for a lot of cars, but here in the EU it’s actually quite dangerous. If a car catches fire it’ll have to be dumped into a specialised container of sorts, which works ok for cars. If a bus catches fire on the wrong street it’ll risk burning the entire street down. Just imagine what power walls would do to neighbourhoods where buildings are close to each other. You’d frankly burn an entire town-part down of every home had a power wall and just one of them caught fire.

epistasis 2y ago
In the US, we pump natural gas directly into most homes, which is extremely dangerous. Yet NG still causes very little death compared to, say, cars, and we tolerate NG in homes and >100 car deaths a day. I can't speak to the EU risk profile, as the EU has far less fire deaths in home than the US, but we here in the US will tolerate home lithium batteries just fine.
thelastgallon 2y ago
Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs: https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin... Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold. Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold: https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordinatio... Statistics from 2015 showed that 174,000 vehicle fires were reported, and almost all of them involved gasoline vehicles. Tesla claims that gasoline cars are 11x more likely to catch fire than a Tesla, and that the best comparison of safety is fires per billion miles driven. If we compare using this method, there are approximately five EV fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars: https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/ https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/
- coderenegade 2y ago
  These stats always get trotted out, but they're not an apples-to-apples comparison for a few reasons: 1) the fleet average is around 12 years old, when most EVs are new enough to still be covered by factory warranty. 2) incidents and risk in cars is coupled with driving patterns and trip length. There's no analysis to tell us whether or not it's the EVs themselves that are safer, or the way they're driven. This is also why the claim of incidents per billion miles needs further qualification. It assumes the driving profile matches the fleet driving profile, but that may not be the case due to charging requirements. 3) a lithium battery fire isn't the same as a gasoline car catching fire, and we shouldn't pretend that they are. Even taking it at face value that EVs catch fire less often, the metric for most people isn't "will my car catch fire?" but rather "will this kill me?". If an EV is actually five times less likely to catch fire, but you're six times more likely to die, that's a net loss in safety. And given the nature of some of the battery fire deaths that have occurred, alongside the -- until recently -- relative scarcity of EVs, I wouldn't fault someone for waiting to see how things shake out. 4) regardless of what stats collected by those in the industry say, you're still paying a higher premium to insure an EV. And I get that there are multiple factors that go into determining that, but I trust the people who's job it is to make money by evaluating risk more than I trust companies trying to sell me an EV. The way I see it, any improvements to the safety of batteries when things go wrong is a good thing. Even if it's the case that batteries are already better, an improvement that eliminates the horror fires that stick in people's minds, even if those fires are incredibly rare, is a big gain in public perception.
  - thelastgallon 2y ago
    > 1) the fleet average is around 12 years old, when most EVs are new enough to still be covered by factory warranty. Does factory warranty prevent fires? > 2) incidents and risk in cars is coupled with driving patterns and trip length. There's no analysis to tell us whether or not it's the EVs themselves that are safer, or the way they're driven. This is also why the claim of incidents per billion miles needs further qualification. It assumes the driving profile matches the fleet driving profile, but that may not be the case due to charging requirements. So, its the drivers fault the car catches fire? But its not the gas car drivers fault, but only EV car drivers fault? > 3) a lithium battery fire isn't the same as a gasoline car catching fire, and we shouldn't pretend that they are. Most of the newer cars have LiFePO4 batteries, which don't have the same risks as Li-Ion cars. From https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-lifepo4-batteries.html https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-l... Non-flammable electrolyte: LiFePO4 batteries use a non-flammable electrolyte that does not catch fire even if the battery is punctured or damaged. The electrolyte is a mixture of lithium salts and a solvent that is less volatile and less flammable than the organic electrolytes used in other types of lithium-ion batteries. High safety: LiFePO4 batteries have a lower risk of overheating and catching fire due to their more stable cathode material and lower operating temperature. They also have built-in protection circuits that prevent overcharge, over-discharge, short-circuit, and physical damage. > 4) regardless of what stats collected by those in the industry say, you're still paying a higher premium to insure an EV. And I get that there are multiple factors that go into determining that, but I trust the people who's job it is to make money by evaluating risk more than I trust companies trying to sell me an EV. All new cars have higher insurance because they cost more.

by devjab 2y ago

epistasis 2y ago

In the US, we pump natural gas directly into most homes, which is extremely dangerous. Yet NG still causes very little death compared to, say, cars, and we tolerate NG in homes and >100 car deaths a day. I can't speak to the EU risk profile, as the EU has far less fire deaths in home than the US, but we here in the US will tolerate home lithium batteries just fine.

thelastgallon 2y ago

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs: https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/ https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasolin... Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold. Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold: https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordinatio... Statistics from 2015 showed that 174,000 vehicle fires were reported, and almost all of them involved gasoline vehicles. Tesla claims that gasoline cars are 11x more likely to catch fire than a Tesla, and that the best comparison of safety is fires per billion miles driven. If we compare using this method, there are approximately five EV fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars: https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/ https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/

coderenegade 2y ago
These stats always get trotted out, but they're not an apples-to-apples comparison for a few reasons: 1) the fleet average is around 12 years old, when most EVs are new enough to still be covered by factory warranty. 2) incidents and risk in cars is coupled with driving patterns and trip length. There's no analysis to tell us whether or not it's the EVs themselves that are safer, or the way they're driven. This is also why the claim of incidents per billion miles needs further qualification. It assumes the driving profile matches the fleet driving profile, but that may not be the case due to charging requirements. 3) a lithium battery fire isn't the same as a gasoline car catching fire, and we shouldn't pretend that they are. Even taking it at face value that EVs catch fire less often, the metric for most people isn't "will my car catch fire?" but rather "will this kill me?". If an EV is actually five times less likely to catch fire, but you're six times more likely to die, that's a net loss in safety. And given the nature of some of the battery fire deaths that have occurred, alongside the -- until recently -- relative scarcity of EVs, I wouldn't fault someone for waiting to see how things shake out. 4) regardless of what stats collected by those in the industry say, you're still paying a higher premium to insure an EV. And I get that there are multiple factors that go into determining that, but I trust the people who's job it is to make money by evaluating risk more than I trust companies trying to sell me an EV. The way I see it, any improvements to the safety of batteries when things go wrong is a good thing. Even if it's the case that batteries are already better, an improvement that eliminates the horror fires that stick in people's minds, even if those fires are incredibly rare, is a big gain in public perception.
- thelastgallon 2y ago
  > 1) the fleet average is around 12 years old, when most EVs are new enough to still be covered by factory warranty. Does factory warranty prevent fires? > 2) incidents and risk in cars is coupled with driving patterns and trip length. There's no analysis to tell us whether or not it's the EVs themselves that are safer, or the way they're driven. This is also why the claim of incidents per billion miles needs further qualification. It assumes the driving profile matches the fleet driving profile, but that may not be the case due to charging requirements. So, its the drivers fault the car catches fire? But its not the gas car drivers fault, but only EV car drivers fault? > 3) a lithium battery fire isn't the same as a gasoline car catching fire, and we shouldn't pretend that they are. Most of the newer cars have LiFePO4 batteries, which don't have the same risks as Li-Ion cars. From https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-lifepo4-batteries.html https://www.evlithium.com/Blog/advanced-safety-features-of-l... Non-flammable electrolyte: LiFePO4 batteries use a non-flammable electrolyte that does not catch fire even if the battery is punctured or damaged. The electrolyte is a mixture of lithium salts and a solvent that is less volatile and less flammable than the organic electrolytes used in other types of lithium-ion batteries. High safety: LiFePO4 batteries have a lower risk of overheating and catching fire due to their more stable cathode material and lower operating temperature. They also have built-in protection circuits that prevent overcharge, over-discharge, short-circuit, and physical damage. > 4) regardless of what stats collected by those in the industry say, you're still paying a higher premium to insure an EV. And I get that there are multiple factors that go into determining that, but I trust the people who's job it is to make money by evaluating risk more than I trust companies trying to sell me an EV. All new cars have higher insurance because they cost more.