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Gruen transfer
- moritzwarhier 2y agoSo familiar in German grocery and drug stores, it's not even funny. There's s tangent to be made about the internet and social media. Unlocking my smartphone feels kind of similar.
- mminer237 2y ago> It is named after Austrian architect Victor Gruen, who disapproved of such manipulative techniques. That's cold. I quite wonder why. Nevertheless, I found this article extremely difficult to read. Its "Description" barely describes it, seems to contradict itself, and somehow just makes my head hurt trying to parse it. Is this attempting self-exemplification?
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- ClassyJacket 2y agoI always heard this explained simply as supermarkets putting milk at the back so you have to walk past a bunch of other stuff to get it.
- cool_dude85 2y agoThere's a few good books on the psychology behind this kind of thing in retail by Paco Underhill. Best, I think, is Why We Buy.
- marcod 2y agoI feel like that is a separate effect... making you walk past items you might want to get you to buy them vs intentionally confusing you so you forget what you came in for in the first place, which makes you more susceptible the the previous and many other effects.
- mminer237 2y agoI get the effectiveness of that—you're essentially getting free advertising for everything walked past. The article just doesn't seem to describe that. It talks about "hyperreality", confusing customers, making them calm, and placing things in attractive positions.
- twelvechairs 2y agoWhen Gruen used it, it was about the shopping center itself definitely not 'items on a shelf' like many use it today. He wanted shopping centers to be like the a nice European town or city shopping street - self-contained shops around the outside and 'town square' type broad pedestrian spaces in the middle that were open, public/community focussed, full of light and trees, and hopefully connected for pedestrians to other areas of a town. He saw this as a good alternative to the car-clogged main streets (with frequently no open space and narrow, poorly maintained footpaths) that were common in post WWII America. What he objected to was the 'square'/circulation area becoming psychologically overwhelming experiences (complex layout, sensory overload, full of advertising billboards, constant changes, no links to other pedestrian areas, etc.) which was adopted by most shopping centres as their studies showed that it meant people bought more (I think he called it 'a machine for spending' or similar) but (for Gruen at least) it killed any sense of a true benign European 'pedestrian street' or 'town square' that he wanted to bring to America.
- PyWoody 2y agoI hate stores that adopt this. I go to the more expensive grocery store in my town simply because they never move anything. I can get my staples, vegetables, and eggs at the pace of a brisk walk. I'm in and out in under fifteen minutes. They did move the organic section once about ten years ago. People still bring it up.
- eru 2y agoAldi is also pretty good about keeping a consistent layout. In the UK, the supermarkets were extremely prone to confusing deals (like two-for-one and worse), but they dialed that down a lot since Aldi and Lidl entered the market with much, much simpler propositions. Customers might fall for your shenanigans once already in the shop, but it turns out they do prefer shops with fewer shenanigans in the first place.
- mrweasel 2y agoThat's an interesting observation, Aldi is now defunct in Denmark, but Lidl share one objection I had to Aldi, I can't find anything. It's true that Lidl doesn't really move their stuff around much, but they constantly have "limited time product" that will just go where ever they have room. The location of many regular products also seem completely random and not necessarily related to the items next to it. So it's not that they move items, but they do place some items so illogically that my brain won't remember where. I can get maybe 80% of my shopping done in 10 minutes, hunting for the remaining 20% can take 20 minutes. Also why doesn't Lidl sell pita bread?
- eru 2y ago> Also why doesn't Lidl sell pita bread? There's lots of stuff they don't sell, keeping the list of items small is part of the strategy of both Aldi and Lidl. Why pita bread in particular didn't make the cut for Lidl, I don't know.
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- zmmmmm 2y agoI worked at a grocery store in my teenage years and a couple of times a year we were enlisted to shift entire segments of items to different isles. The owners were quite transparent: every time they did it, they got an uptick in sales that lasted much longer than you would think (like months). The effect of people wandering around trying to find the item they needed inevitably leads to them stumbling on other things and buying them on impulse. And I think those "impulse" buys were often much higher margin than whatever they came into store to buy in the first place. Another bizarre thing was positioning items right on the edge of the shelf, as if they are about to fall off. Apparently this creates some kind of psychological impulse as well.
- cool_dude85 2y ago>Another bizarre thing was positioning items right on the edge of the shelf, as if they are about to fall off. Apparently this creates some kind of psychological impulse as well. This practice was called "zoning" where I used to work. It was explained to me that people think the shelves are more full and will report in surveys etc. that the store has a better selection.
- m463 2y agoI definitely remember a grocery store I went to years ago was going out of business. Asking the cashiers only said "nah, not happening". But the shelves were getting bare. there was space around cans and bottles on the shelves, and there were a limited number in each row. It definitely gave you a feeling of impending demise. That the store was sad and unhealthy, and that prosperity was limited. also, all of this stuff also works in casinos, where every part of the design is carefully chosen. Dimmer warm lighting, since you and your companions always look happier and healthier even a 4am when complexions are actually pale, eyes are bleary, and makeup is smudged.
- hnick 2y agoIn Australia they called it "facing up" (e: seems there's a wiki article calling it "facing" and maybe my boss just Aussied it a bit) and it was something I had to do every night while/after packing the stock. It also helped find stuff that people put back in the wrong place, or had expired (you're meant to pack back to front but people get lazy and then those fish fingers have been there for months).
- bobnamob 2y agoSee also the Australian Broadcasting Corp's long running TV series of derivative name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruen_(TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruen_(TV_series)
- jeromesalimao 2y agoSuch a good show.
- ggm 2y agoLongterm AU resident, used to watch. It got "meh" -they fall back on tropes.
- jensenbox 2y agoIKEA
- jensenbox 2y agoShoppers Drugmart in Canada makes people walk through the cosmetics department before you can enter the store proper.
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- hnick 2y agoIt's a large part of why I always shop at the same supermarket despite having closer options now. I feel like it takes twice as long with even minor layout differences. Then they go and move things anyway. My first order of business upon entering an Ikea is finding the map, checking the shortcuts, and going straight to where I need to go. Always feels a little naughty with how they position the flappy doors between areas, like I'm walking through a staff-only entrance, and I guess that's intentional.
- jackvalentine 2y agoMy wife does the shopping list and I do the shopping... she hasn't been to the supermarket in ~2 years. It's been a really interesting view in to how the supermarket layout changes because her list is getting more and more out of order and requires me to correct it before going to the store. I guess we should swap roles for a bit to correct the issue!
- hnick 2y agoLet's just say I have the typical mindset of someone on this site and so for larger buys I add ingredients into Excel per recipe/need then rearrange into sections (Meat, Fridge, etc) roughly in order of store sections, 2 column layout, print. Only takes a few minutes and saves more time than that, but it is helpful being both the shopper and list writer like you say. I'm very quick since I'm on a mission. I don't like the process of browsing but enjoy completing lists (I blame video games), there's a strange enjoyment folding that paper to hide the completed sections. When we go together my wife just wanders off knowing she needs 2 things for work snacks or for the dogs or something and by the time I've found her, I finished the entire shop and she's barely carrying 7 items since she didn't need a basket for just 2 things. Totally different mindset, she would say I worry too much, I would say I like certainty where I can have it.
- selcuka 2y agoThat gives me an idea for a nifty tool that could reorder shopping lists according to the layout of the supermarket of your choice. Obviously someone should train the tool first; either you or the community.
- harry8 2y agoJust like unlocking your phone for one specific, quick purpose then getting distracted by notifications and 10-15 minutes you've forgotten what you actually needed to do. Deliberate gruen or poor ui design? Social media & their ilk UI is likely not a mistake (eg youtube, X, netflix) given it nakedly optimizes engagement.
- mr_toad 2y ago> you've forgotten what you actually needed to do In my case I only picked up the phone to do TFA. Which expired because I got distracted and now I need to log in again :(
- mrweasel 2y agoI don't know, Snapchats UI is so confusing that I find it hard to believe that they did that deliberately. Every so often I get lost in some weird corner of the app and need to force close the app and start over.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago> I don't know, Snapchats UI is so confusing that I find it hard to believe that they did that deliberately. You're assuming someone is actually thinking about these design changes. Constantly changing things around based on detailed telemetry is effectively doing backpropagation by hand - the result doesn't need to make any sense, it only has to improve the metrics with each change.
- lexicality 2y agoThere's a 99pi episode about this that explains in much better imo https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-gruen-effect/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-gruen-effect/
- lencastre 2y ago99%I is the best
- brcmthrowaway 2y agoInstacart should call their service fee the Gruen tax
- jszymborski 2y agoThe opposite of this, IMHO, is Home Depot. Hop on their site, do a quick search for the items you want, arrive with a list of aisle and bay numbers. I feel like I'm speed running whenever I go.
- imoverclocked 2y agoExcept the HD website is slow AF. I can often walk somewhere in the store faster than I can find it on their site if I know the general area to begin with.
- dyauspitr 2y agoTheir app too. I’ve given up on making several high dollar purchases because it would take minutes to load.
- imoverclocked 2y agoI found something that was supposedly in stock with 2 or 3 in a particular store. I drove to that store, looked everywhere and finally gave up and asked an associate. This person walks to a different aisle, looks up in the higher areas and then says that “only 3 in stock isn’t that high of a number and that they probably don’t have it.” I drove to Harbor Freight and made my purchase of a slightly lesser but available floor-stand belt/disc sander.
- jszymborski 2y agoSearch is abysmally slow, I agree.
- Lightkey 2y agoAlso a good reminder that ö, ä, ü should be subtituted with oe (like in Goethe), ae (aether) or ue here (Gruen's original name was Grünbaum); not o, a, u.
- eru 2y agoAs always with any purported finding related to sociology or psychology: does it actually replicate? I can see how the people who design malls will try to sell up their magic 'Gruen transfer' powers to mall developers. But how much of this is wishful thinking? Reminds me of the alleged magic power of Facebook ads to eg swing elections.
- eru 2y ago> Reminds me of the alleged magic power of Facebook ads to eg swing elections. ... but the preferred candidates of the founders of Facebook and Google etc still losing elections. (I'm fairly sure comparative technocrats like Mitt Romney or Michael Bloomberg and so on would be more to their liking than the people who are actual front-runners in the elections.)
- dmichulke 2y agoKudos to Aldi and Lidl who have a similar or same design in every store in the country. Keeps my shopping time low.
- riedel 2y agoI wonder if placing the perfume department at the entrance of some large convenience stores also serves a similar effect (additionally the islands with luxury goods in your way also makes the other part easy to implement as well). The smell alone, however, always makes me dizzy and I tend to hate entering, now I see it with a slightly different perspective.
- smusamashah 2y agoIsn't this just a form of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorway_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doorway_effect where you forget things when you pass through a doorway?
- Miraltar 2y agoI guess it could be described as an exploit of it
- rswail 2y agoThere's an awesome series on Australian ABC (our BBC) called "Gruen Transfer" about advertising. Covers the techniques, explains campaigns, analyzes ads etc. https://iview.abc.net.au/show/gruen https://iview.abc.net.au/show/gruen
- matthewsinclair 2y agoAussie here. I cannot recommend this show highly enough. It's absolutely brilliant.
- thih9 2y agoIt’s noticeable because it’s so tangible and common; but I’d say there are more incarnations of this effect, harder to notice. E.g. the way startups work with equity and shares and everything in between is also convoluted and grandiose - and makes people choose irrationally. I’m sure there are more examples.
- locallost 2y agoDoes it also explain the way amazon.com looks? I am not being snarky or cheeky, I am usually confused when there and can't find anything
- lupire 2y agoOnly in the general sense that both are optimized to maximize profit, not customer happiness.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y agoThe flip side of this is that making a store harder/slower to navigate makes it more frustrating. Classic examples would be escalators: They can be arranged in an alternating pattern so you can enter the next "up" escalator as you exit one, or to make you walk around the escalator tower before you can take the next one. Or, in a particularly frustrating mall, scattered randomly throughout the building (different locations on each floor) so you also have to search for it first. This definitely makes the customer see more of the product/mall... but especially these extreme forms also make the customer (subconsciously or consciously) hate the place and avoid it in the future. I've noticed malls and department stores ease up on these kind of tactics over the past decades, probably because they realized this effect. Which also makes me wonder: The amount a customer that enters ends up buying is likely easily measured, while the long-term effect on customer attraction/retention is much harder to measure. So it may be one of the many situations where the thing that is easily measurable gets attention while neglecting a possibly more important, but harder to measure thing. Is there a term for that effect?
- vanderZwan 2y ago> In shopping mall design, the Gruen transfer (also known as the Gruen effect) is the moment when consumers enter a shopping mall or store and, surrounded by an intentionally confusing layout, lose track of their original intentions, making them more susceptible to making impulse buys. It is named after Austrian architect Victor Gruen, who disapproved of such manipulative techniques. > The Gruen transfer is a psychological phenomenon in which an idealised hyperreality is realized by deliberate reconstruction, providing a sense of safety and calm through exceptional familiarity. In a speech in London in 1978, Victor Gruen disavowed shopping mall developments as having "bastardised" his ideas: "I refuse to pay alimony for those bastard developments." (citing in case the article ever gets edited in the future) Based on these descriptions it sounds more like Victor Gruen first came up with the technique described in the second paragraph, with good intentions behind it. Then, after implementing said ideas, the effect described first was discovered, and mall owners and other shops started doing this on purpose. Maybe it would be better, and also more fair to Victor Gruen, to explicitly distinguish two as "Gruen transfer" and "Gruen effect", with the transfer causing the effect? (also, as an aside: assuming my interpretation is correct, it's kind of funny that for once Stigler's Law of Eponymy[0] doesn't apply, but in a monkey's paw kind of twist it still backfired) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy
- lupire 2y agoIt's a little weird to intentionally go to a store and then be upset thet it shows you things you want to buy.
- dang 2y agoRelated: Gruen transfer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16845078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16845078 - April 2018 (58 comments)
- wduquette 2y agoThis seems to be closely related to casino design in, e.g., Las Vegas.
- aodonnell2536 2y agoAn interesting anecdote and counterexample (at least to me): Just yesterday I visited a rather large mall to visit a jeweler for a simple ask, and while standing in the store 3 other jewelers were visible. The jeweler I had visited was unwilling to assist. After visiting two others that were noticed while waiting, I got some help. Was very convenient!