8 ms·

I am exhausted switching services. please can we pick one and be done with it? How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo?

I am exhausted switching services. please can we pick one and be done with it? How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo? Is the technology not there yet? I wish the post office was a bank and they hosted their own pay apps.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Because every app needs to be the dominant one or it can't possibly make enough money to make a VC happy, which is the answer to all three of your questions. You want infrastructure, not private networks, and there is no infrastructure, just private networks trying to be infrastructure for rent-seeking purposes.
sa-code 2y ago
In Europe people can send money from any bank to any bank through IBAN numbers (your bank account number) Not sure what's taking so long in the states
- smartician 2y ago
  IIUC the EU basically had to force banks to implement this via a mandate. I don't see "business friendly" US lawmakers doing the same anytime soon. The joys of the Free market™!
  - Cu3PO42 2y ago
    I mean, yes, it was mandated, but I am decently confident a usable system would have emerged one way or the other. In Germany we had a standardized API for online banking (HBCI) just because banks agreed it would be reasonable to do that.
- ozim 2y ago
  But no one wants that, bank numbers are too much hassle and typing out 34 digits is error prone. Everyone in Europe also uses Tikkie, Blik whatever else service in other countries.
  - dvdkon 2y ago
    When I want to send money to a friend of acquaintance, they generally show/send me a payment QR code, which contains their bank account number and amount. From what I can tell, this is typical in the Czech Republic.
  - mvdtnz 2y ago
    My bank account number is 14 numbers plus a suffix.
- dgellow 2y ago
  There is even a QR code standard for SEPA transfers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    TIL. Many thanks.-
- toephu2 2y ago
  In America you can also send money to mostly anyone else in America via Zelle (most banks in the U.S. support Zelle)
- Longhanks 2y ago
  Sure, and that takes 24 hours to be processed (business days only). And IBANs are not very user friendly. In the US, this is solved by PayPal. Not sure what's taking so long for europe to launch a competitor.
  - odiroot 2y ago
    In the UK it takes a few seconds. And works 24/7.
  - samastur 2y ago
    Check SEPA Instant Credit :)
  - tonfa 2y ago
    > Sure, and that takes 24 hours to be processed (business days only) There's SEPA instant now (that starts to be ubiquitous).
  - sa-code 2y ago
    Your response sounds a bit defensive of the US, my intention is not to start a tribe war and I apologise if I have done that. There are plenty of things that the US does well that Europe does not, if that's any consolation. Paypal exists in the EU as well but this is a layer on top of a banking system and not quite a "native" solution. I would like a "native banking" way to send and receive money when I am both in the EU and the US :)
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  One major difference is that the American banking market is significantly more fragmented as a policy choice compared to Europe. By share of deposits, the top four are JPMorgan Chase at 16%, BofA at 15%, Wells Fargo at 11%, and Citibank at 5%. The fragmentation means it’s very difficult to get thousands of credit unions and smaller banks compliant with things, since the lesser regulations for these smaller institutions is a policy choice to let them survive and thrive. The US favors these to avoid market concentrations like the big cross border European bank failures in the financial crisis, and also because smaller banks lend more to small or rural businesses.
Bluestein 2y ago
(Open standards are a godsend in scenarios like these. Right now, the space is so balcanized, it is almost disfunctional ...)
ryandrake 2y ago
> How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo? Is the technology not there yet? The industry can't/won't manage to even solve the problem of text chat apps talking to each other, let alone money-sending apps.
- kaibee 2y ago
  On the bright side, I think getting the money-sending integration would be more politically viable, at which point we can just piggyback the messaging on top of it.
  - Liquix 2y ago
    SMS and cryptocurrency have largely solved the "send info or money to anyone instantly" problem. then entities stepped in to protect their walled gardens (governments in control of financial systems, apple, facebook, google) and viola, everything is fragmented and the problem has been unsolved. the issue was never making it happen technically, it's the entrenched power structures prioritizing money/power over actual progress.
    - g15jv2dp 2y ago
      I don't know what's going on in the other side of the ocean, but around here, but in the SEPA we have had instant transfers between bank accounts for a while. Some banks are trying to slow it down (like charging 1€ for transfers) for some reason, but personally I use it all the time and it's great. I'm not sure why you'd have to make up this big conspiracy theory about governments not wanting people to send money to other people.
    - dalyons 2y ago
      SMS "solves" sending info, as long as you only want to send very short bits of text with uncertain deliverability.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    > at which point we can just piggyback the messaging on top of it. Which is exactly Google's messaging app strategy for as long as it existed. That's how we got messaging inside Google Maps.
CaptainOfCoit 2y ago
> How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo? Is the technology not there yet? Because companies want you to be locked in their ecosystem. The industry keeps saying they can self regulate, but until lawmakers step in, expect that the consumers will continue to be harmed because companies are chasing profits, not actually improving the user experiences.
criddell 2y ago
The post office idea makes a lot of sense to me. There are a lots of people with no bank account but could use a pay app that isn't going to screw them.
- KorematsuFredt 2y ago
  Are you saying USPS is not going to screw things up ?
  - criddell 2y ago
    I was thinking more about the usurious rates that are often charged to people who can least afford it.
- mountainofdeath 2y ago
  The unbanked in the USA don't have a bank account for a variety of reasons. Typically 1. Mistrust and fear of "being in the system" 2. Having a legal judgment against them e.g. child support, fines, overdue rent 3. Avoiding showing income to not lose income-defined government benefits 4. Hiding income from tax authorities
dboreham 2y ago
> Is the technology not there yet? Your system of government isn't there yet.
mdhb 2y ago
I think this is a US centric thing maybe because the banking infrastructure is decades behind everyone else
- tempest_ 2y ago
  Yeah, I think that is why I see less venmo/cashapp in Canada. Most(maybe all?) banks offer interact e-transfers and you can can send it to an email or phone number and be done.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    Yep, Australia has used BSB/account number for many decades, and launched the NPP (instant transfer between banks proxied via the reserve bank) almost a decade ago that allows you to register your own identifiers like phone number, email, etc. Last time I was in America (admittedly 5 years ago now), most places didn't even do Apple Pay (we had this near ubiquitous 9 years ago), you needed a physical card and to _sign_ for things most places (we phased out signatures a decade ago because they're quite insecure) and most places seem to accept paper cheques with all the risks and complexities they come with. I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with America here, but what the fuck are they doing? They seem to arbitrarily decide to dig their feet on for "personal freedoms and choices" for things that benefit them whilst simultaniously giving them away for things that don't.
KorematsuFredt 2y ago
> I wish the post office was a bank and they hosted their own pay apps. Lol.
rrdharan 2y ago
Have you read about the British postmaster scandal? Be careful what you wish for…
jeffwask 2y ago
Honestly, I made the mistake of looking to standardize on Google when I bought a Pixel. I got the watch some Google Home devices and they have in the following years terminated the Fit API, terminated gPay, reduce the integration to Home at this point I have no trust in Google to even maintain the basic services they offered the year prior.
- jeffwask 2y ago
  This made me recall another great Googlism. My Google Home device can stream music and what is that default player when I say OK, Google play... It's Spotify. I'm a YouTube Subscriber, you know another Google product which is a Spotify competitor. Ok Google play AC/DC on YouTube Music. Nope, it's commercials in Spotify. Can you imagine a world where Apple sold the music rights on the iPad to Spotify? It's so ludicrously short sighted and against the whole principle of an integrated Google ecosystem. They sabotage long term gains for short term profit and wonder why they keep failing. Well, maybe because you compete against yourselves.
niij 2y ago
FedNow is being implemented now across the industry. It is the "SEPA" for the USA. It will replace the 3rd party hacks (covering up the slow and tedious nature of ACH) that currently exist via Venmo, Cashapp, Zelle[0], etc [0]: Zelle is ran by a consortium of FIs. I don't know for certain what will happen to it, but I suspect if it stays around in name it would switch to the FedNow rail behind the scenes.
- westurner 2y ago
  /? fednow API: https://www.google.com/search?q=fednow+api https://www.google.com/search?q=fednow+api [...] - From https://explore.fednow.org/resources?id=67#_Who_should_download https://explore.fednow.org/resources?id=67#_Who_should_downl... : > Who should download the FedNow ISO 20022 message specifications and how can I access them? > The Federal Reserve is using the MyStandards® platform to provide access to the FedNow ISO 20022 message specifications and accompanying implementation guide. You can access these on the Federal Reserve Financial Services portal (Off-site) under the FedNow Service. Users need a MyStandards account, which you can create on the SWIFT website (Off-site). View our step-by-step guide (PDF, Off-site) for tips on accessing the specifications. FedNow charges a $0.045/tx fee. (edit: And a waived $25/mo fee [...] https://explore.fednow.org/explore-the-city?id=3&building=&postId=47&postTitle=2024-fednow-service-pricing-now-available https://explore.fednow.org/explore-the-city?id=3&building=&p... ) From "X starts experimenting with a $1 per year fee for new users" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37933366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37933366 ... From "Anatomy of an ACH transaction" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36503888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36503888 : > The WebMonetization spec [4] and docs [5] specifies the `monetization` <meta> tag for indicating where supporting browsers can send payments and micropayments: <meta name="monetization" content="$wallet.example.com/alice"> And from "Paying Netflix $0.53/H, etc." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685348 : > W3C Web Monetization does micropayments with a <$0.01/tx fee, but not KYC or AML. > [Web Monetization] is an open spec: https://webmonetization.org/specification/ https://webmonetization.org/specification/ Built on W3C Interledger: https://interledger.org/interledger https://interledger.org/interledger : > Built on modern technologies, Interledger can handle up to 1 million transactions per second per participant > ILP is not tied to a single company, payment network, or currency. Interledger > Peering, Clearing and Settling: https://interledger.org/developers/rfcs/peering-clearing-settling/ https://interledger.org/developers/rfcs/peering-clearing-set... Can FedNow handle micropayments volumes? > Micropayments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment Does FedNow integrate with Interledger; i.e. is there support for "ILP Addresses"?
SirMaster 2y ago
I've been using PayPal to send and receive money from friends and family since basically forever. Why anyone ever used anything else is beyond me.
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  PayPal is a PITA to use for things like yard sales. That’s why Venmo is winning.
kragen 2y ago
you need to pick one that isn't owned by a company or government that can shut it down. currently, of these, bitcoin seems to have the widest adoption
zorowithenma 2y ago
In India we have a thing called upi which let's us send money from one bank acc to other one, it doesn't matter which app we are using. We can send money from gpay to whatsapp, phonepe, etc. The transactions are directly made via banks and not the app wallets which is much easier to use.
mountainofdeath 2y ago
When I was in China, the government issued an edict that basically said "merchants of a certain size must accept AliPay/WeChat Pay/UnionPay CloudPay universally". All of the above are almost identical "Scan my QR code" to pay. It would be nice to have such an edict, forcing compatibility outside of the ACH system but it will never happen.
- baxtr 2y ago
  Ah yes great idea. Let’s also copy other mandatory “edicts” invented in China. They had a couple of great ideas in the past years.
instagib 2y ago
Keep in mind some of these are exempt from the now delayed US tax rules and some are not. Zelle is on the exempt list but PayPal, Venmo, and cash app are not. It’s going to be interesting when people start getting tax forms from all these companies and need to back track if they were tip splitting or getting paid for their side hustle.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

Because every app needs to be the dominant one or it can't possibly make enough money to make a VC happy, which is the answer to all three of your questions. You want infrastructure, not private networks, and there is no infrastructure, just private networks trying to be infrastructure for rent-seeking purposes.

sa-code 2y ago

In Europe people can send money from any bank to any bank through IBAN numbers (your bank account number) Not sure what's taking so long in the states

smartician 2y ago
IIUC the EU basically had to force banks to implement this via a mandate. I don't see "business friendly" US lawmakers doing the same anytime soon. The joys of the Free market™!
- Cu3PO42 2y ago
  I mean, yes, it was mandated, but I am decently confident a usable system would have emerged one way or the other. In Germany we had a standardized API for online banking (HBCI) just because banks agreed it would be reasonable to do that.
ozim 2y ago
But no one wants that, bank numbers are too much hassle and typing out 34 digits is error prone. Everyone in Europe also uses Tikkie, Blik whatever else service in other countries.
- dvdkon 2y ago
  When I want to send money to a friend of acquaintance, they generally show/send me a payment QR code, which contains their bank account number and amount. From what I can tell, this is typical in the Czech Republic.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  My bank account number is 14 numbers plus a suffix.
dgellow 2y ago
There is even a QR code standard for SEPA transfers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code
- Bluestein 2y ago
  TIL. Many thanks.-
toephu2 2y ago
In America you can also send money to mostly anyone else in America via Zelle (most banks in the U.S. support Zelle)
Longhanks 2y ago
Sure, and that takes 24 hours to be processed (business days only). And IBANs are not very user friendly. In the US, this is solved by PayPal. Not sure what's taking so long for europe to launch a competitor.
- odiroot 2y ago
  In the UK it takes a few seconds. And works 24/7.
- samastur 2y ago
  Check SEPA Instant Credit :)
- tonfa 2y ago
  > Sure, and that takes 24 hours to be processed (business days only) There's SEPA instant now (that starts to be ubiquitous).
- sa-code 2y ago
  Your response sounds a bit defensive of the US, my intention is not to start a tribe war and I apologise if I have done that. There are plenty of things that the US does well that Europe does not, if that's any consolation. Paypal exists in the EU as well but this is a layer on top of a banking system and not quite a "native" solution. I would like a "native banking" way to send and receive money when I am both in the EU and the US :)
bobthepanda 2y ago
One major difference is that the American banking market is significantly more fragmented as a policy choice compared to Europe. By share of deposits, the top four are JPMorgan Chase at 16%, BofA at 15%, Wells Fargo at 11%, and Citibank at 5%. The fragmentation means it’s very difficult to get thousands of credit unions and smaller banks compliant with things, since the lesser regulations for these smaller institutions is a policy choice to let them survive and thrive. The US favors these to avoid market concentrations like the big cross border European bank failures in the financial crisis, and also because smaller banks lend more to small or rural businesses.

Bluestein 2y ago

(Open standards are a godsend in scenarios like these. Right now, the space is so balcanized, it is almost disfunctional ...)

ryandrake 2y ago

> How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo? Is the technology not there yet? The industry can't/won't manage to even solve the problem of text chat apps talking to each other, let alone money-sending apps.

kaibee 2y ago
On the bright side, I think getting the money-sending integration would be more politically viable, at which point we can just piggyback the messaging on top of it.
- Liquix 2y ago
  SMS and cryptocurrency have largely solved the "send info or money to anyone instantly" problem. then entities stepped in to protect their walled gardens (governments in control of financial systems, apple, facebook, google) and viola, everything is fragmented and the problem has been unsolved. the issue was never making it happen technically, it's the entrenched power structures prioritizing money/power over actual progress.
  - g15jv2dp 2y ago
    I don't know what's going on in the other side of the ocean, but around here, but in the SEPA we have had instant transfers between bank accounts for a while. Some banks are trying to slow it down (like charging 1€ for transfers) for some reason, but personally I use it all the time and it's great. I'm not sure why you'd have to make up this big conspiracy theory about governments not wanting people to send money to other people.
  - dalyons 2y ago
    SMS "solves" sending info, as long as you only want to send very short bits of text with uncertain deliverability.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > at which point we can just piggyback the messaging on top of it. Which is exactly Google's messaging app strategy for as long as it existed. That's how we got messaging inside Google Maps.

CaptainOfCoit 2y ago

> How about adversarial integration? Why can't I send money from cashapp to venmo? Is the technology not there yet? Because companies want you to be locked in their ecosystem. The industry keeps saying they can self regulate, but until lawmakers step in, expect that the consumers will continue to be harmed because companies are chasing profits, not actually improving the user experiences.

criddell 2y ago

The post office idea makes a lot of sense to me. There are a lots of people with no bank account but could use a pay app that isn't going to screw them.

KorematsuFredt 2y ago
Are you saying USPS is not going to screw things up ?
- criddell 2y ago
  I was thinking more about the usurious rates that are often charged to people who can least afford it.
mountainofdeath 2y ago
The unbanked in the USA don't have a bank account for a variety of reasons. Typically 1. Mistrust and fear of "being in the system" 2. Having a legal judgment against them e.g. child support, fines, overdue rent 3. Avoiding showing income to not lose income-defined government benefits 4. Hiding income from tax authorities

dboreham 2y ago

> Is the technology not there yet? Your system of government isn't there yet.

mdhb 2y ago

I think this is a US centric thing maybe because the banking infrastructure is decades behind everyone else

tempest_ 2y ago
Yeah, I think that is why I see less venmo/cashapp in Canada. Most(maybe all?) banks offer interact e-transfers and you can can send it to an email or phone number and be done.
- averageRoyalty 2y ago
  Yep, Australia has used BSB/account number for many decades, and launched the NPP (instant transfer between banks proxied via the reserve bank) almost a decade ago that allows you to register your own identifiers like phone number, email, etc. Last time I was in America (admittedly 5 years ago now), most places didn't even do Apple Pay (we had this near ubiquitous 9 years ago), you needed a physical card and to _sign_ for things most places (we phased out signatures a decade ago because they're quite insecure) and most places seem to accept paper cheques with all the risks and complexities they come with. I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with America here, but what the fuck are they doing? They seem to arbitrarily decide to dig their feet on for "personal freedoms and choices" for things that benefit them whilst simultaniously giving them away for things that don't.

KorematsuFredt 2y ago

> I wish the post office was a bank and they hosted their own pay apps. Lol.

rrdharan 2y ago

Have you read about the British postmaster scandal? Be careful what you wish for…

jeffwask 2y ago

Honestly, I made the mistake of looking to standardize on Google when I bought a Pixel. I got the watch some Google Home devices and they have in the following years terminated the Fit API, terminated gPay, reduce the integration to Home at this point I have no trust in Google to even maintain the basic services they offered the year prior.

jeffwask 2y ago
This made me recall another great Googlism. My Google Home device can stream music and what is that default player when I say OK, Google play... It's Spotify. I'm a YouTube Subscriber, you know another Google product which is a Spotify competitor. Ok Google play AC/DC on YouTube Music. Nope, it's commercials in Spotify. Can you imagine a world where Apple sold the music rights on the iPad to Spotify? It's so ludicrously short sighted and against the whole principle of an integrated Google ecosystem. They sabotage long term gains for short term profit and wonder why they keep failing. Well, maybe because you compete against yourselves.

niij 2y ago

FedNow is being implemented now across the industry. It is the "SEPA" for the USA. It will replace the 3rd party hacks (covering up the slow and tedious nature of ACH) that currently exist via Venmo, Cashapp, Zelle[0], etc [0]: Zelle is ran by a consortium of FIs. I don't know for certain what will happen to it, but I suspect if it stays around in name it would switch to the FedNow rail behind the scenes.

westurner 2y ago
/? fednow API: https://www.google.com/search?q=fednow+api https://www.google.com/search?q=fednow+api [...] - From https://explore.fednow.org/resources?id=67#_Who_should_download https://explore.fednow.org/resources?id=67#_Who_should_downl... : > Who should download the FedNow ISO 20022 message specifications and how can I access them? > The Federal Reserve is using the MyStandards® platform to provide access to the FedNow ISO 20022 message specifications and accompanying implementation guide. You can access these on the Federal Reserve Financial Services portal (Off-site) under the FedNow Service. Users need a MyStandards account, which you can create on the SWIFT website (Off-site). View our step-by-step guide (PDF, Off-site) for tips on accessing the specifications. FedNow charges a $0.045/tx fee. (edit: And a waived $25/mo fee [...] https://explore.fednow.org/explore-the-city?id=3&building=&postId=47&postTitle=2024-fednow-service-pricing-now-available https://explore.fednow.org/explore-the-city?id=3&building=&p... ) From "X starts experimenting with a $1 per year fee for new users" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37933366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37933366 ... From "Anatomy of an ACH transaction" (2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36503888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36503888 : > The WebMonetization spec [4] and docs [5] specifies the `monetization` <meta> tag for indicating where supporting browsers can send payments and micropayments: <meta name="monetization" content="$wallet.example.com/alice"> And from "Paying Netflix $0.53/H, etc." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38685348 : > W3C Web Monetization does micropayments with a <$0.01/tx fee, but not KYC or AML. > [Web Monetization] is an open spec: https://webmonetization.org/specification/ https://webmonetization.org/specification/ Built on W3C Interledger: https://interledger.org/interledger https://interledger.org/interledger : > Built on modern technologies, Interledger can handle up to 1 million transactions per second per participant > ILP is not tied to a single company, payment network, or currency. Interledger > Peering, Clearing and Settling: https://interledger.org/developers/rfcs/peering-clearing-settling/ https://interledger.org/developers/rfcs/peering-clearing-set... Can FedNow handle micropayments volumes? > Micropayments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment Does FedNow integrate with Interledger; i.e. is there support for "ILP Addresses"?

SirMaster 2y ago

I've been using PayPal to send and receive money from friends and family since basically forever. Why anyone ever used anything else is beyond me.

adamtaylor_13 2y ago
PayPal is a PITA to use for things like yard sales. That’s why Venmo is winning.

kragen 2y ago

you need to pick one that isn't owned by a company or government that can shut it down. currently, of these, bitcoin seems to have the widest adoption

zorowithenma 2y ago

In India we have a thing called upi which let's us send money from one bank acc to other one, it doesn't matter which app we are using. We can send money from gpay to whatsapp, phonepe, etc. The transactions are directly made via banks and not the app wallets which is much easier to use.

mountainofdeath 2y ago

When I was in China, the government issued an edict that basically said "merchants of a certain size must accept AliPay/WeChat Pay/UnionPay CloudPay universally". All of the above are almost identical "Scan my QR code" to pay. It would be nice to have such an edict, forcing compatibility outside of the ACH system but it will never happen.

baxtr 2y ago
Ah yes great idea. Let’s also copy other mandatory “edicts” invented in China. They had a couple of great ideas in the past years.

instagib 2y ago

Keep in mind some of these are exempt from the now delayed US tax rules and some are not. Zelle is on the exempt list but PayPal, Venmo, and cash app are not. It’s going to be interesting when people start getting tax forms from all these companies and need to back track if they were tip splitting or getting paid for their side hustle.