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My biggest worry about passwords by Apple is that I have even less pull when they screw it up. Not that I have a lot of input in 1Password, of course, but I be

My biggest worry about passwords by Apple is that I have even less pull when they screw it up. Not that I have a lot of input in 1Password, of course, but I bet if I get loud enough on HN for long enough, I could get the attention of the CEO. Try that with Apple. As a long time user (sufferer) of Screen Time, I am acutely aware of how badly Apple can screw up software, and how long they can let it go unfixed. Tim Cook ain't ever going to hear my pleas.

tyingq 2y ago
Might be outweighed by the bigger effects when they do screw something up. Like if their passwords mess up for amazon.com, some big airline, Facebook, etc... the noise will get pretty loud pretty quick.
- devsda 2y ago
  I know that some people were able to successfully get through to a human/support at Google via HN. I don't remember seeing those for Apple. Are there examples of anyone failing to get meaningful help from official support but were able to find a successful resolution through HN ?
burnte 2y ago
This is exactly why I use 1Password and not the manager in Chrome, and I won't use Apple Passwords either.
icee 2y ago
Keychain Access has been there since the beginning of OSX/macOS. It's quietly been storing email and wifi passwords this entire time. Many, before there was an alternative like 1Password, used the app to store other info within as well through secure notes. Passwords in iOS and Safari, along with Keychain sync in iCloud have expanded the keychain functionality over the years and it's been fine for ~25 years or so. I have faith they won't suddenly screw this up and comparisons to less critical stuff like Screen Time aren't really valid here. And sherlocking? I don't think so. When 1Password came out, it was clearly inspired by Keychain Access that had been there for years prior with similar functionality and even user interfaces.
- davidfischer 2y ago
  Keychain Access has not been "fine". It's had multiple unaddressed data loss bugs. For example, Keychain lost all passwords from all Keychains after the Catalina update[1] and this wasn't fixed in the next 3 Catalina minor updates. Multiple users reported the issue to Apple and the response was crickets. Even if you restored the passwords, it helpfully deleted them all again. I switched to 1Password and declared Keychain Access a lost cause. I don't think I'll be giving them a second chance here. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250722178 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250722178
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    That does seem like one Apple fault, that Microsoft does better -- triaging actual bugs. Apple has devs. Maybe some teams are short-staffed, but they fix things. What Apple doesn't seem to have is a functional bugfix priority loop that includes customer input and provides feedback.
    - alex_suzuki 2y ago
      It starts with the horrendous thing called “Feedback Assistant”. Black hole if I ever saw one.
  - icee 2y ago
    Depends on how we define "fine," but your own post clarifies that it was "website passwords -- but not app passwords, secure notes, certs, or keys." That's a pretty big difference compared to "all passwords" and seems like it affected a small number of people. In any case, if we're using anecdotes, I haven't had any issues with it so far and it's been decades. Given how 1Password has been getting shittier over time, I've been looking for an alternative, and I for one am going to give this a shot. You can check in with me in a few more decades and ask me if it went okay.
mym1990 2y ago
Can you expand more on the Screen Time issue?
- colingoodman 2y ago
  I've had a bug where unpausing a particular app requires doing so 2+ times before I can access the app. The bug has persisted on multiple devices for multiple years and it makes for a pretty clunky user experience. That's one example that comes to mind for me.
  - cianmm 2y ago
    I have this same issue. I've got to unpause the app multiple times, and wait for upwards of 15 to 30 seconds before the app actually unpauses.
  - garrickvanburen 2y ago
    It happens so often for me, I just assumed it was a key feature of how Screen Time worked e.g. 1-click to unpause isn't really a deterrent, but what if unpausing took a random number of clicks to unpause - now that's a deterrent to not unpause.
  - willyt 2y ago
    It doesn't matter how many times you click it, there is a delay before it unpauses. If you click it once it will unpause after about 15-20 seconds. I'm not sure why it does this, it could be syncing with iCloud to also remove the restriction on your phone and iPad or it could be a feature that gives you a short pause to reflect on whether you really do want to continue wasting you life on hacker news.
  - PascLeRasc 2y ago
    Anyone get the bug where you can't get away from the Safari tab that's screen timed because anything you type into the address bar gets deleted by another popup?
- jperkin 2y ago
  For me it's completely unfit for purpose: * It's incompatible with some apps, e.g. Roblox, that are full-screened, and you end up in an annoying loop between the Roblox screen and the request more time screen fighting with each other, with no ability to click anything. My kid has learned how to hit the Option-Command-Escape shortcut to force-kill Roblox using just the keyboard and restart. * Sometimes Screen Time requests come via Notifications (yay), and sometimes they come via Messages (boo). There doesn't appear to be any logic behind which. * When they come in via Messages, and I leave Messages.app running for too long, it ends up eating all of the memory on my 32GB M1 Max and forcing me to restart the system. * Sometimes requests do not come through at all. * Sometimes the user cannot request more time. Clicking the button does nothing. * Sometimes multiple requests come through for the same app. Approving one of the requests does not satisfy all of them, you have to approve all of them. * Requests for websites do not work. Every so often Roblox breaks and results in having to re-download the .dmg. You end up in a loop between approving the request for more time and the website saying the user needs to request more time. I ended up writing a shell script to curl it instead (which requires munging User-Agent because the Roblox download page does not have a direct link to the dmg). It's clear there are no Apple employees who actually use Screen Time to manage kids time. I can only assume they just let their kids have unlimited access, because trying to actually use Screen Time is absolutely infuriating, and only gets worse over time (e.g. the Notifications vs Messages thing is a recent regression). It's also worth pointing out that I have absolutely zero issues with Android Family Link. It all Just Works for similar purposes.
rurp 2y ago
This is definitely a factor and applies to regular support help as well. I sent 1Password an email several years ago about an issue and got a prompt and helpful response back. It was a much better experience than I would ever expect from Apple (or Google/Microsoft/etc). I'm not really a fan of 1Password overall though. The product is still fine but has gotten gradually worse over the years and their corporate posture does not inspire any confidence. Consumer apps that focus on Enterprise and are only interested in SaaS revenue almost always follow the same path of endlessly degrading the user experience once they reach a certain point. I haven't seen anything that makes me think they will be an exception, but I give them credit for actually having a real support channel, at least as of a few years ago.

tyingq 2y ago

Might be outweighed by the bigger effects when they do screw something up. Like if their passwords mess up for amazon.com, some big airline, Facebook, etc... the noise will get pretty loud pretty quick.

devsda 2y ago
I know that some people were able to successfully get through to a human/support at Google via HN. I don't remember seeing those for Apple. Are there examples of anyone failing to get meaningful help from official support but were able to find a successful resolution through HN ?

burnte 2y ago

This is exactly why I use 1Password and not the manager in Chrome, and I won't use Apple Passwords either.

icee 2y ago

Keychain Access has been there since the beginning of OSX/macOS. It's quietly been storing email and wifi passwords this entire time. Many, before there was an alternative like 1Password, used the app to store other info within as well through secure notes. Passwords in iOS and Safari, along with Keychain sync in iCloud have expanded the keychain functionality over the years and it's been fine for ~25 years or so. I have faith they won't suddenly screw this up and comparisons to less critical stuff like Screen Time aren't really valid here. And sherlocking? I don't think so. When 1Password came out, it was clearly inspired by Keychain Access that had been there for years prior with similar functionality and even user interfaces.

davidfischer 2y ago
Keychain Access has not been "fine". It's had multiple unaddressed data loss bugs. For example, Keychain lost all passwords from all Keychains after the Catalina update[1] and this wasn't fixed in the next 3 Catalina minor updates. Multiple users reported the issue to Apple and the response was crickets. Even if you restored the passwords, it helpfully deleted them all again. I switched to 1Password and declared Keychain Access a lost cause. I don't think I'll be giving them a second chance here. [1] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250722178 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/250722178
- ethbr1 2y ago
  That does seem like one Apple fault, that Microsoft does better -- triaging actual bugs. Apple has devs. Maybe some teams are short-staffed, but they fix things. What Apple doesn't seem to have is a functional bugfix priority loop that includes customer input and provides feedback.
  - alex_suzuki 2y ago
    It starts with the horrendous thing called “Feedback Assistant”. Black hole if I ever saw one.
- icee 2y ago
  Depends on how we define "fine," but your own post clarifies that it was "website passwords -- but not app passwords, secure notes, certs, or keys." That's a pretty big difference compared to "all passwords" and seems like it affected a small number of people. In any case, if we're using anecdotes, I haven't had any issues with it so far and it's been decades. Given how 1Password has been getting shittier over time, I've been looking for an alternative, and I for one am going to give this a shot. You can check in with me in a few more decades and ask me if it went okay.

mym1990 2y ago

Can you expand more on the Screen Time issue?

colingoodman 2y ago
I've had a bug where unpausing a particular app requires doing so 2+ times before I can access the app. The bug has persisted on multiple devices for multiple years and it makes for a pretty clunky user experience. That's one example that comes to mind for me.
- cianmm 2y ago
  I have this same issue. I've got to unpause the app multiple times, and wait for upwards of 15 to 30 seconds before the app actually unpauses.
- garrickvanburen 2y ago
  It happens so often for me, I just assumed it was a key feature of how Screen Time worked e.g. 1-click to unpause isn't really a deterrent, but what if unpausing took a random number of clicks to unpause - now that's a deterrent to not unpause.
- willyt 2y ago
  It doesn't matter how many times you click it, there is a delay before it unpauses. If you click it once it will unpause after about 15-20 seconds. I'm not sure why it does this, it could be syncing with iCloud to also remove the restriction on your phone and iPad or it could be a feature that gives you a short pause to reflect on whether you really do want to continue wasting you life on hacker news.
- PascLeRasc 2y ago
  Anyone get the bug where you can't get away from the Safari tab that's screen timed because anything you type into the address bar gets deleted by another popup?
jperkin 2y ago
For me it's completely unfit for purpose: * It's incompatible with some apps, e.g. Roblox, that are full-screened, and you end up in an annoying loop between the Roblox screen and the request more time screen fighting with each other, with no ability to click anything. My kid has learned how to hit the Option-Command-Escape shortcut to force-kill Roblox using just the keyboard and restart. * Sometimes Screen Time requests come via Notifications (yay), and sometimes they come via Messages (boo). There doesn't appear to be any logic behind which. * When they come in via Messages, and I leave Messages.app running for too long, it ends up eating all of the memory on my 32GB M1 Max and forcing me to restart the system. * Sometimes requests do not come through at all. * Sometimes the user cannot request more time. Clicking the button does nothing. * Sometimes multiple requests come through for the same app. Approving one of the requests does not satisfy all of them, you have to approve all of them. * Requests for websites do not work. Every so often Roblox breaks and results in having to re-download the .dmg. You end up in a loop between approving the request for more time and the website saying the user needs to request more time. I ended up writing a shell script to curl it instead (which requires munging User-Agent because the Roblox download page does not have a direct link to the dmg). It's clear there are no Apple employees who actually use Screen Time to manage kids time. I can only assume they just let their kids have unlimited access, because trying to actually use Screen Time is absolutely infuriating, and only gets worse over time (e.g. the Notifications vs Messages thing is a recent regression). It's also worth pointing out that I have absolutely zero issues with Android Family Link. It all Just Works for similar purposes.

rurp 2y ago

This is definitely a factor and applies to regular support help as well. I sent 1Password an email several years ago about an issue and got a prompt and helpful response back. It was a much better experience than I would ever expect from Apple (or Google/Microsoft/etc). I'm not really a fan of 1Password overall though. The product is still fine but has gotten gradually worse over the years and their corporate posture does not inspire any confidence. Consumer apps that focus on Enterprise and are only interested in SaaS revenue almost always follow the same path of endlessly degrading the user experience once they reach a certain point. I haven't seen anything that makes me think they will be an exception, but I give them credit for actually having a real support channel, at least as of a few years ago.