8 ms·

And ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization

by whatever1 2y ago

albertopv 2y ago
And never will (probably), Apple has been clear for years about market segmentation.
- _nalply 2y ago
  It's about control. If they would allow virtualization then some people would use that to run software Apple can't control, especially not monetize.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    It is no different than Windows Home, Professional, Workstation, Enterprise, Nano, Server,....
    - soulofmischief 2y ago
      Well, Windows is also user-hostile and engages in control tactics.
    - sgjohnson 2y ago
      Windows Server is actually quite tightly controlled licensing wise. Any client user/device using any service on the server requires a client access licence (CAL).
    - cyberax 2y ago
      No, it is VERY different from Windows Home/Pro. Windows doesn't bar you from running custom code. Windows Home does not ship Hyper-V, but it allows you to run your own hypervisors just fine.
      - derefr 2y ago
        It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation. In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. The way to "add" those components to iPadOS is different, but the effect would still be the same: having a computer that works like it has the better edition installed, without paying for the better edition.
        cyberax 2y ago
        > It's not about running arbitrary code But it is. Microsoft just doesn't want home users to run Hyper-V, without paying for a (slightly) more expensive Windows Pro license. Home users still can download free VirtualBox or whatever other solution they care to use. They can also upgrade to a Pro license in-place, by paying $100. This is all perfectly normal. iPadOS is completely different. Apple does not _allow_ users to run any non-trivial system-level code. If Apple doesn't want you to access virtualization on iPad, you're out of luck. There are no easy workarounds.
        derefr 2y ago
        No, I mean, "not allowing you to run arbitrary code" is just a side-effect, not the design choice. The design choice is market segmentation. In the Windows case, they can enforce your inability to install/enable Hyper-V on Windows Home through simple measures like protecting system files from modification. But in the iPadOS case, the only way to really prevent you from running a macOS VM, is by preventing you from running any VM. Due to the Turing-completeness of virtual machines, there's really no lesser measure they can take. You literally cannot create a piece of software that can run arbitrary VMs except for if the VM is semantically macOS. Whatever signal you would look for to blacklist macOS, an adversarial VM creator can mask by modifying the installation. (At an equilibrium point of such a game, the "adversarially-created macOS VM" would end up looking more like a Hackintosh rootfs than like a Mac rootfs — but it'd still look and feel and work like macOS, and that's all users would care about.)
    - hmottestad 2y ago
      Might be better to compare it to the Xbox or PlayStation.
  - swarnie 2y ago
    Shouldn't people be able to run whatever software they like on a device they've purchased? Anything less isn't full ownership.
    - denkmoon 2y ago
      They can purchase something that allows that.
walterbell 2y ago
At this point, only the EU can save the iPad from being eWaste World Champion. Mandate support for alternate OSes, like Asahi Linux on Macbook, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Security-Crash-Course https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur... > ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization iPadOS 17 on M4 has a "Secure Exclave" OS, https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013 https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Here, https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface Vote with your wallet, if enough people do that, maybe Apple will notice. Now if you already validated what they are selling is enough to keep the masses happy, then it is as it is.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Waiting patiently for the first Nuvia/Oryon/SDXE tablet or 2-in-1, with detachable non-bluetooth keyboard The Snapdragon Elite devices launched so far have been laptops.
  - sneak 2y ago
    The number of people who are willing and able to “vote with their wallet” for alternative OSes on iPad is insufficient for results. The vast, vast majority of iPad users want iPadOS and nothing else. Hope is not a strategy.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Yet another proof that those that want something else, should sponsor someone else for their efforts. Not give money to Apple, and then complain.
justinclift 2y ago
It'd be super useful if Asahi Linux worked on iPads. :)

And ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization

albertopv 2y ago

And never will (probably), Apple has been clear for years about market segmentation.

_nalply 2y ago
It's about control. If they would allow virtualization then some people would use that to run software Apple can't control, especially not monetize.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  It is no different than Windows Home, Professional, Workstation, Enterprise, Nano, Server,....
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    Well, Windows is also user-hostile and engages in control tactics.
  - sgjohnson 2y ago
    Windows Server is actually quite tightly controlled licensing wise. Any client user/device using any service on the server requires a client access licence (CAL).
  - cyberax 2y ago
    No, it is VERY different from Windows Home/Pro. Windows doesn't bar you from running custom code. Windows Home does not ship Hyper-V, but it allows you to run your own hypervisors just fine.
    - derefr 2y ago
      It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation. In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.) In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't. The way to "add" those components to iPadOS is different, but the effect would still be the same: having a computer that works like it has the better edition installed, without paying for the better edition.
      - cyberax 2y ago
        > It's not about running arbitrary code But it is. Microsoft just doesn't want home users to run Hyper-V, without paying for a (slightly) more expensive Windows Pro license. Home users still can download free VirtualBox or whatever other solution they care to use. They can also upgrade to a Pro license in-place, by paying $100. This is all perfectly normal. iPadOS is completely different. Apple does not _allow_ users to run any non-trivial system-level code. If Apple doesn't want you to access virtualization on iPad, you're out of luck. There are no easy workarounds.
        derefr 2y ago
        No, I mean, "not allowing you to run arbitrary code" is just a side-effect, not the design choice. The design choice is market segmentation. In the Windows case, they can enforce your inability to install/enable Hyper-V on Windows Home through simple measures like protecting system files from modification. But in the iPadOS case, the only way to really prevent you from running a macOS VM, is by preventing you from running any VM. Due to the Turing-completeness of virtual machines, there's really no lesser measure they can take. You literally cannot create a piece of software that can run arbitrary VMs except for if the VM is semantically macOS. Whatever signal you would look for to blacklist macOS, an adversarial VM creator can mask by modifying the installation. (At an equilibrium point of such a game, the "adversarially-created macOS VM" would end up looking more like a Hackintosh rootfs than like a Mac rootfs — but it'd still look and feel and work like macOS, and that's all users would care about.)
  - hmottestad 2y ago
    Might be better to compare it to the Xbox or PlayStation.
- swarnie 2y ago
  Shouldn't people be able to run whatever software they like on a device they've purchased? Anything less isn't full ownership.
  - denkmoon 2y ago
    They can purchase something that allows that.

walterbell 2y ago

At this point, only the EU can save the iPad from being eWaste World Champion. Mandate support for alternate OSes, like Asahi Linux on Macbook, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Security-Crash-Course https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur... > ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization iPadOS 17 on M4 has a "Secure Exclave" OS, https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013 https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013

pjmlp 2y ago
Here, https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface Vote with your wallet, if enough people do that, maybe Apple will notice. Now if you already validated what they are selling is enough to keep the masses happy, then it is as it is.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- walterbell 2y ago
  Waiting patiently for the first Nuvia/Oryon/SDXE tablet or 2-in-1, with detachable non-bluetooth keyboard The Snapdragon Elite devices launched so far have been laptops.
- sneak 2y ago
  The number of people who are willing and able to “vote with their wallet” for alternative OSes on iPad is insufficient for results. The vast, vast majority of iPad users want iPadOS and nothing else. Hope is not a strategy.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Yet another proof that those that want something else, should sponsor someone else for their efforts. Not give money to Apple, and then complain.

justinclift 2y ago

It'd be super useful if Asahi Linux worked on iPads. :)