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Beyond this specific project, I think it's worth keeping in mind that Intel probably isn't just shoving money into Israel for no reason (or sketchy geopolitical
by 0xcde4c3db 2y ago
Beyond this specific project, I think it's worth keeping in mind that Intel probably isn't just shoving money into Israel for no reason (or sketchy geopolitical reasons); the company's history there goes back to the '70s and includes a few major milestones, like the 8088 (which is "just" a cut-down 8086, but was used in the original IBM PC) and the Pentium M (which arguably rescued Intel from its overcommitment to P4/NetBurst by forming the basis of the original Core architecture).
- glitchc 2y agoThe Core architecture saved Intel at a time it was headed for irrelevance with the PIII and P4. Both couldn't compete with comparable AMD offerings.
- The_Colonel 2y agoIt's not like Core arch was some radical new design. It's mostly just reverting to the evolution of PIII (which itself is mostly a minor evolution of the Pentium Pro).
- TechDebtDevin 2y agoIt's baffling to me why all the biggest fabs are built in high risk potential conflict zones. South Korea, Taiwan and Israel. It's terrible capital management if we're going to use those words.
- xwolfi 2y agoBuild it in France and Italy and come back tell me about capital management :)
- rtpg 2y agoYou say that but honestly given the salary gaps that we're seeing in US vs the rest of the world, somebody is one day going to make a good arbitrage play with "made in EU" prestige + a pretty understood process + low euro salaries + American disposable income.
- TechDebtDevin 2y agoI'm betting on South America. Climate, economic and political plays to be made here. The west has been priming South America for this for a while imo.
- The_Colonel 2y agoSouth America has been promising for decades but it just keeps not fulfilling the expectations. I don't fully understand why, but I think it's not very business friendly (mostly controlled by left wing populists).
- 0xcde4c3db 2y agoIt feels like a cop-out to type this, but I think the unsatisfying-yet-obvious explanation is that capital follows capital, and at some point there was a compelling reason to put capital in all of those now-unstable places. Somebody at some time needed to build up industry in those places.
- TechDebtDevin 2y agoThese places are some of the wealthiest on earth GDP per capita. Try again.
- gnramires 2y agoIt's a bit of a cliche, but as I live in Brazil I'd say it's mostly true that people living happily at the beach aren't desperate for economical and technical development, and mostly to enjoy daily life and nature. When you're under threats or crisis, technical development seems like a necessity for survival. (There are however, many technical poles in scenic locations in Brazil, like Florianopolis-SC and Ceara). That said, we should be somewhat worried about desperation-fueled endeavours.
- treflop 2y agoMost of my best work is from desperation, sometimes very indirectly. I think this is how humans and maybe most living things work. Motivation is not that easy to come by.
- csomar 2y agoTaiwan is more scenic and safer than probably most of Brazil. The quality of life is probably only matched by some European cities with extra safety everywhere. Most Taïwanaise I have talked to are not that concerned with the prospect of war. Maybe some capitalists out there but most people are unaware of the geopolitics.
- piva00 2y agoSafer I can totally agree with you but more scenic... I will absolutely completely disagree, just because Brazil is massive (larger than the continental US) and with a very varied geography. Taiwanese cities are more scenic but as a country I highly contest the comparison.
- gnramires 2y agoI'm glad that war is not really considered a large risk. I know some people from Taiwan, does seem like quite good quality of life! I didn't mention, but I think there are other important factors like the cultural importance given to (formal) education in those places (that might be broadly connected with strong will to develop economically?).
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
- ignoramous 2y ago> high risk potential conflict zones Israel is threatened by resource-constrained guerrillas, not well-funded / nuclear-powered military like Taiwan and South Korea are.
- hedora 2y agoThe Israeli government is widely believed to have nukes.
- EasyMark 2y agoI'm not sure why you're being downvoted, it's generally accepted they have nukes and don't talk about it, "we will neither confirm nor deny"
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThe comment is likely being downvoted because it doesn’t seem like a response to its parent comment. The parent was saying that Israel is not facing a well-resourced military but a guerrilla group (Hamas). Its opponents don’t have things like nukes. The parent comment was not saying that Israel doesn’t have nukes. On the other hand, Taiwan is threatened by China (a nuclear power) and South Korea is threatened by North Korea (also a nuclear power).
- gizmo686 2y agoIsrael is in a regional cold war with Iran. While Iran is certainly not a global super, it is a serious military force (which could plausibly become a nuclear power). Further, resource constrained guerrilla/terrorist groups love valuable targets like a $25B factory that provides a critical input for a significant portion of the global economy.
- ignoramous 2y ago> resource constrained ... terrorist groups If they were well-armed by the West, they'd be called a military. > love valuable targets like a $25B factory Until 7 Oct, Israel had proven more than capable of protecting its assets (at a cost). Since 7 Oct, it looks like they seek to do that once again (at a cost). I don't think megacorps are worried that much given none of the G7 really seems to care about those costs.
- flamedoge 2y agonot so baffling when you realize those places aren't blessed with natural resources. people have to use their brainpower for gdp there
- johnnyApplePRNG 2y agoSouth Korea and Taiwan are hell of a lot more stable than they were decades ago. Taiwan has transitioned from an authoritarian regime under martial law (lifted in 1987) to a vibrant democracy. Regular, free elections have become a norm, and political power transitions smoothly. Taiwan's economy has grown significantly, becoming one of the "Four Asian Tigers" with a strong technology sector. Companies like TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company) are global leaders. Taiwan has seen advancements in social issues, such as becoming the first country in Asia to legalize same-sex marriage in 2019. South Korea has also moved from a period of military dictatorship to a stable, democratic society with regular and peaceful elections. South Korea has transformed from a war-torn country in the 1950s to one of the world's largest economies, excelling in technology, automotive, and other industries. It is home to major global brands like Samsung, Hyundai, and LG. South Korea has made significant strides in education, healthcare, and quality of life. Its cultural exports, like K-pop and Korean dramas, have gained international popularity, enhancing its soft power.
- frutiger 2y agoWas this comment generated with the help of an LLM?
- EasyMark 2y agoIt definitely looks a bit too concise and extraneous information packed to be anything else
- cwillu 2y agoIt's the same formatting style as many of their other comments, while the content is different from the usual LLM-generated fare, so I'm leaning no. Comments about comments being LLM generated are getting old pretty fast though.
- johnnyApplePRNG 2y agoI hate the future. You're seriously questioning me and or my intelligence because LLMs exist now? Perfect.
- drak0n1c 2y agoHuman capital is the main prerequisite and attractant for all other forms of capital.
- rayiner 2y agoThe intellectual capital in this countries just happens to be off the charts. It is probably, to a degree, related to the existential jeopardy those countries face.
- kjkjadksj 2y agoMaybe its the other way around: at risk areas feel the need to make themselves useful to the largest military on earth
- yongjik 2y agoMeh, fabs in South Korea and Taiwan are funded and operated by domestic corporations. There's no international body assigning capitals according to a grand master plan, it's just South Korean and Taiwanese corporations' capital (which they attracted by being successful). Your complaint is basically that some countries in potential conflict zones ended up being economically successful.
- rramadass 2y agoI have never found a convincing explanation for this either. My hypothesis is that these are easier to control politically and do their "master's bidding" when needed (i.e. Geo-political reasons). Others who might turn out to be strategic Geo-political rivals are simply sidelined.
- thefz 2y agoMaybe operational costs are lower? Land, workforce, power...
- numpad0 2y agoTo me it looks like that the free world and its NIMBYism tends to shift physical fabrication jobs out towards its edges. I've heard that Silicon Valley actually made tons of silicons half a century ago. Japan made rather high-performance CPUs as recent as until 2000s-2010s. Now there are lots more in South Korea, Malaysia/Singapore, East coast Mainland China, and of course Taiwan. Maybe in a decade or two we'll hear about Tibet or Nepalese fabs expanding into Afghanistan or Iran, or maybe something different altogether might happen before that. (btw, Intel actually has a lot of production capacity in the US[1]. The US don't need Taiwan and SK intact for bare minimum survival in an unlikely event of a global thermonuclear war) 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...
- tim333 2y agoIn all those cases you probably had a lot of intellectuals driven there basically by communist or nazi militaries. Then if you're an Einstein type dropped in a refugee zone why not start a tech business? Or encourage the kids to. Related if you look at "(R&D) expenditure as share of gross domestic product (GDP)" the top are (https://www.statista.com/statistics/732269/worldwide-research-and-development-share-of-gdp-top-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/732269/worldwide-researc...) 1 Israel 2 S Korea 3 Taiwan 4 USA
- ok_computer 2y agoTaiwan and Korea built capable semiconductor fab ecosystems because of their countries’ economic development position, not despite their precarious political position. People need to understand fabs are both skilled labor and automation intensive. Apart from that there are supplier ecosystems that only exist in those regions. Korea and Taiwan needed to have globalized export economies. Their education standards and culture are a good fit for scale manufacturing, both still had conscription military service. The labor at the time 80-90’s and currently is still highly competitive for their skilled labor force. EU semiconductor is not a joke but the tools and wafer size are not state of art. I know EUV machine is a product of EU, but that moonshot tool is something that can only come out of a long dev government subsidized program like CERN and the bosson. They aren’t exporting that tool into the EU too it’s going right to Asia. The EU is full of high living standards and well educated people but the semiconductor production is mainly serving local consumption (or local companies supply chains, automotive parts). EU does research but that doesn’t translate to at scale fabs. EU gets protective and wants to secure local supply for their own tool vendors and needs to understand that smaller local machine brands cannot compete with the majors for the run of mill machines. EUV is a different story that thing is anomaly and power to them for following up on it. Also strong labor organizations don’t attract capital. And semiconductor cannot take the month of August off. US has capital and plenty of cheap land and cheap labor but still more expensive than Asia standards. Depending on state non existent labor protections and competitive environment permits. Not great education standards. Excellent skilled immigration. But still not leading in semi production especially with the old guard just keep losing. Still strong #2 though. And the ecosystem is nowhere near as integrated as Seoul. Like would you leave your hame family and friends in Oregon to startup a next gen Fab in Phoenix? No way. Geography isn’t doing US favors there for dynamism.
- pmcjones 2y agoThe 8087 was also designed there. (Professor William Kahan was a consultant who worked with the Intel team and provided key algorithms.)