3 ms·

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstra

by tjoff 14y ago

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it. If you can disable it it doesn't serve the customer, because the customer is incompetent and would gladly disable it in exchange for a picture of a cat. You don't buy a computer, you buy an android/windows/iOS device. Just as you don't buy a computer when you buy an Xbox360 or an PS3 - and because you haven't bought a computer you shouldn't really have any problems with the manufacturer locking you in. Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! Sigh. I never said I agreed with Microsoft, but it is a rational decision (a rational decision that Apple and pretty much all Android and WP manufacturers have made) that fits well withing the concept of all popular mobile OS's, if you don't buy into that then I guess your only bet is maemo/meego, because you surely don't run WP/android/iOS, right?

nitrogen 14y ago
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.
- tjoff 14y ago
  Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.
  - amalcon 14y ago
    Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.
    - tjoff 14y ago
      You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone. Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it. I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability. Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.
      - Symmetry 14y ago
        You actually _can_ in fact run sorts of Linux other than Android on your phone: http://linuxonandroid.blogspot.com/ http://linuxonandroid.blogspot.com/
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        "But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it." really? You would have no objections to the router manufacturer trying to make your life a "living hell"? For the most part manufacturers don't really care about people re purposing their devices for other goals unless it potentially leaves them legally liable for something (e.g a children's toy with small parts being repurposed as food). People naturally re-purpose things all the time, for example using a bank note to do cocaine , an AOL CD as a coaster , a newspaper or deodorant to kill a wasp etc etc. In fact a huge amount of human innovation comes from taking an existing thing and using it for something else, going back as far as the original hunters who took tree branches and used them to kill dinner. The critical thing about computers is that their entire reason for existence is to be repurposed, a computer on it's own is useless. What we in the software industry are in the business of doing is finding ways to repurpose computers and their entire appeal is that this is so easily done. I would hate to live in a world where everything has one discreet purpose regardless of it's physical abilities, for example imagine having to purchase a separate TV for every channel you wish to watch.
- ralfd 14y ago
  You contradict yourself a little bit. If you decide your PC is a heater, well, then it is one! It is commercially unviable to sell it to someone third as that, but if you managed that feat, it would be a bit strange if this person then came to you: "You sold me this electric heater, but I looked into it and it is warmed by an especially hot Intel CPU. So I decided it is a PC and despite you are being in the heater-selling-business I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware so I can install Windows XP to play Solitaire in long cold winter nights."
  - nathan_long 14y ago
    >> I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware That's a different issue. I support the manufacturer saying "we won't guarantee our computer-as-heater will work if you change the software." What I don't support is "we have have made it legally/physically/cryptographically impossible for you to use the thing you bought however you want to." If I sell you a watermelon, I'll guarantee its freshness. I'll not guarantee its fitness as a boat anchor, but if you want to try that, go right ahead.
tomrod 14y ago
I'm made quite the cluster out of hacked PS3s. Isn't that in the spirit of Hacker News, anyway?
nathan_long 14y ago
>> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.

by tjoff 14y ago

nitrogen 14y ago

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.

tjoff 14y ago
Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.
- amalcon 14y ago
  Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.
  - tjoff 14y ago
    You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone. Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it. I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability. Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.
    - Symmetry 14y ago
      You actually _can_ in fact run sorts of Linux other than Android on your phone: http://linuxonandroid.blogspot.com/ http://linuxonandroid.blogspot.com/
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      "But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it." really? You would have no objections to the router manufacturer trying to make your life a "living hell"? For the most part manufacturers don't really care about people re purposing their devices for other goals unless it potentially leaves them legally liable for something (e.g a children's toy with small parts being repurposed as food). People naturally re-purpose things all the time, for example using a bank note to do cocaine , an AOL CD as a coaster , a newspaper or deodorant to kill a wasp etc etc. In fact a huge amount of human innovation comes from taking an existing thing and using it for something else, going back as far as the original hunters who took tree branches and used them to kill dinner. The critical thing about computers is that their entire reason for existence is to be repurposed, a computer on it's own is useless. What we in the software industry are in the business of doing is finding ways to repurpose computers and their entire appeal is that this is so easily done. I would hate to live in a world where everything has one discreet purpose regardless of it's physical abilities, for example imagine having to purchase a separate TV for every channel you wish to watch.
ralfd 14y ago
You contradict yourself a little bit. If you decide your PC is a heater, well, then it is one! It is commercially unviable to sell it to someone third as that, but if you managed that feat, it would be a bit strange if this person then came to you: "You sold me this electric heater, but I looked into it and it is warmed by an especially hot Intel CPU. So I decided it is a PC and despite you are being in the heater-selling-business I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware so I can install Windows XP to play Solitaire in long cold winter nights."
- nathan_long 14y ago
  >> I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware That's a different issue. I support the manufacturer saying "we won't guarantee our computer-as-heater will work if you change the software." What I don't support is "we have have made it legally/physically/cryptographically impossible for you to use the thing you bought however you want to." If I sell you a watermelon, I'll guarantee its freshness. I'll not guarantee its fitness as a boat anchor, but if you want to try that, go right ahead.

tomrod 14y ago

I'm made quite the cluster out of hacked PS3s. Isn't that in the spirit of Hacker News, anyway?

nathan_long 14y ago

>> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.