4 ms·

I strongly disagree. >> "These devices are not multipurpose devices". These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or

I strongly disagree. >> "These devices are not multipurpose devices". These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or even calculators. They are computers. They also have GPS, motion sensors, cameras, and microphones. They are multipurpose enough to make phone calls, play games, run maps, and even power satellites: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smartphone.html http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smart... >> Since Microsoft have expressed that secure boot must be optional on x86 it is quite easy to justify this rationally... Why does doing the right thing in once place give them license to do the wrong thing in another? I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it.

tjoff 14y ago
No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it. If you can disable it it doesn't serve the customer, because the customer is incompetent and would gladly disable it in exchange for a picture of a cat. You don't buy a computer, you buy an android/windows/iOS device. Just as you don't buy a computer when you buy an Xbox360 or an PS3 - and because you haven't bought a computer you shouldn't really have any problems with the manufacturer locking you in. Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! Sigh. I never said I agreed with Microsoft, but it is a rational decision (a rational decision that Apple and pretty much all Android and WP manufacturers have made) that fits well withing the concept of all popular mobile OS's, if you don't buy into that then I guess your only bet is maemo/meego, because you surely don't run WP/android/iOS, right?
- nitrogen 14y ago
  People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.
  - tjoff 14y ago
    Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.
    - amalcon 14y ago
      Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.
      - tjoff 14y ago
        You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone. Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it. I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability. Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.
- tomrod 14y ago
  I'm made quite the cluster out of hacked PS3s. Isn't that in the spirit of Hacker News, anyway?
- nathan_long 14y ago
  >> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.

tjoff 14y ago

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it. If you can disable it it doesn't serve the customer, because the customer is incompetent and would gladly disable it in exchange for a picture of a cat. You don't buy a computer, you buy an android/windows/iOS device. Just as you don't buy a computer when you buy an Xbox360 or an PS3 - and because you haven't bought a computer you shouldn't really have any problems with the manufacturer locking you in. Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! Sigh. I never said I agreed with Microsoft, but it is a rational decision (a rational decision that Apple and pretty much all Android and WP manufacturers have made) that fits well withing the concept of all popular mobile OS's, if you don't buy into that then I guess your only bet is maemo/meego, because you surely don't run WP/android/iOS, right?

nitrogen 14y ago
People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.
- tjoff 14y ago
  Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.
  - amalcon 14y ago
    Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.
    - tjoff 14y ago
      You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone. Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it. I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability. Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.
tomrod 14y ago
I'm made quite the cluster out of hacked PS3s. Isn't that in the spirit of Hacker News, anyway?
nathan_long 14y ago
>> Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! My long-term concern is that this will no longer be possible.