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London has had this sort of congestion pricing for years. £15/day, about USD $19. Exemption for zero-emission vehicles, but that will end from 2026. As a Londo

London has had this sort of congestion pricing for years. £15/day, about USD $19. Exemption for zero-emission vehicles, but that will end from 2026. As a London resident I'd say it only has benefits: frees up road space for those vehicles that really need it. Makes walking and cycling safer and more pleasant. Shifts some journeys to public transport. Generates revenue that gets reinvested in transport projects.

vosper 2y ago
Does reduced congestion not also make it much healthier to walk/live/work close to busy roads? We know that combustion and tire pollution causes a number of health issues.
- Reason077 2y ago
  Certainly, London's air has gotten noticeably cleaner in recent years. Although I suspect most of this gain is from incentivising zero-emission vehicles through the congestion charge exemption and also the ULEZ ultra-low emission zone (an additional charge on older dirty vehicles), not just from reducing traffic volumes.
bko 2y ago
Person who doesn't pay a tax, actually likes the tax. In other news: water is wet. In all seriousness, doesn't this also impact cab prices? How much is a typical fare for 15min ride in central London?
- Reason077 2y ago
  > "doesn't this also impact cab prices?" Not directly, because most London taxis and Ubers are electric and thus exempt from the congestion charge. This exemption will end by 2026, but even then we're talking about £15 spread between many fares over the day.
timr 2y ago
> London has had this sort of congestion pricing for years. £15/day, about USD $19. Exemption for zero-emission vehicles, but that will end from 2026. City of London has had it. It's an absolutely trivial area when compared to what is proposed in Manhattan, where literally half of the island -- and almost every major entry/exit point to the island -- is included in the "congestion area". London's congestion area is something akin to lower Manhattan south of Wall St., by proportion of land and overall impact. It's completely disingenuous that supporters of this plan keep confusing the tiny London congestion area with the entirety of London. You can see the actual proportion on the maps on these pages: London's zone: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/congestion-charge-zone https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/congestio... NYC's zone: https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-congestion-pricing-map-exemptions-start-date https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-congestion-pricing-map-exemp...
- Reason077 2y ago
  > "It's an absolutely trivial area when compared to what is proposed in Manhattan" This is incorrect. The London congestion charge zone covers 21 sq km. The proposed Manhatten congestion zone includes only the area below 60th street, which is approximately 20 sq km. They are almost exactly the same size. The £12.50 ULEZ (ultra-low emission zone) charge works using similar technology and covers all of Greater London (excluding the M25), an area about 30x larger than the entire island of Manhattan. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ule...
  - timr 2y ago
    Edit: you completely changed your comment after I replied, so I'll respond to your new one here: > This is incorrect. The London congestion charge zone covers 21 sq km. The proposed Manhatten congestion zone includes only the area below 60th street, which is approximately 20 sq km. They are almost exactly the same size. That's a completely silly comparison. Manhattan is 23 square miles. London is 610 square miles. In other words, the proposed Manhattan congestion area is 33% of Manhattan's total land area, if we accept your assertion of 20 square km (7.72 square miles). The city of London congestion area is only 1.4% of London's land area. But of course, you can see that on the maps I shared. It's plainly visible. It's difficult to define the equivalent proportion for London, because it would be so absurd -- something like everything within A406 and A205. --- Old commment: OK? It's not the technology I have a dispute with, it's the implementation. The way they were planning to do it here involved numerous exceptions necessitated by the sheer scope of the thing (e.g. the FDR and the west side highway) and arcane rules (e.g. one deck/ramp of the queensboro would have it, but not the other) that were necessary to wedge this kind of a system into Manhattan's street system. Because of these, there was almost certainly going to be a mess at the edges of the zone. But also, it should be fairly obvious that a tax on "ULEZ" probably already excludes most vehicles on the road, thus significantly reducing implementation challenges. It's less of an active fare-gathering scheme, and more of an incentive to get people out of older vehicles. We have a similar system in place at time of registration.
_heimdall 2y ago
Serious questions - Do people living outside the city of London also agree it only has benefits? And does it work so well for London because more people actually live in the city, compared to New York City which is comparsrively full of commutors and tourists?
- Reason077 2y ago
  More than 1 million commuters and tourists travel in to London every day, but the vast majority (> 80%) travel by train/plane/tube/etc. People driving to Central London from elsewhere in the UK often park in outer London, where there are large carparks near major rail stations with fast trains into the center. This saves both time and money!
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Motorcycles are free in London. NYC was only giving a 50% discount.

vosper 2y ago

Does reduced congestion not also make it much healthier to walk/live/work close to busy roads? We know that combustion and tire pollution causes a number of health issues.

Reason077 2y ago
Certainly, London's air has gotten noticeably cleaner in recent years. Although I suspect most of this gain is from incentivising zero-emission vehicles through the congestion charge exemption and also the ULEZ ultra-low emission zone (an additional charge on older dirty vehicles), not just from reducing traffic volumes.

bko 2y ago

Person who doesn't pay a tax, actually likes the tax. In other news: water is wet. In all seriousness, doesn't this also impact cab prices? How much is a typical fare for 15min ride in central London?

Reason077 2y ago
> "doesn't this also impact cab prices?" Not directly, because most London taxis and Ubers are electric and thus exempt from the congestion charge. This exemption will end by 2026, but even then we're talking about £15 spread between many fares over the day.

timr 2y ago

> London has had this sort of congestion pricing for years. £15/day, about USD $19. Exemption for zero-emission vehicles, but that will end from 2026. City of London has had it. It's an absolutely trivial area when compared to what is proposed in Manhattan, where literally half of the island -- and almost every major entry/exit point to the island -- is included in the "congestion area". London's congestion area is something akin to lower Manhattan south of Wall St., by proportion of land and overall impact. It's completely disingenuous that supporters of this plan keep confusing the tiny London congestion area with the entirety of London. You can see the actual proportion on the maps on these pages: London's zone: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/congestion-charge-zone https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/congestio... NYC's zone: https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-congestion-pricing-map-exemptions-start-date https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-congestion-pricing-map-exemp...

Reason077 2y ago
> "It's an absolutely trivial area when compared to what is proposed in Manhattan" This is incorrect. The London congestion charge zone covers 21 sq km. The proposed Manhatten congestion zone includes only the area below 60th street, which is approximately 20 sq km. They are almost exactly the same size. The £12.50 ULEZ (ultra-low emission zone) charge works using similar technology and covers all of Greater London (excluding the M25), an area about 30x larger than the entire island of Manhattan. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ule...
- timr 2y ago
  Edit: you completely changed your comment after I replied, so I'll respond to your new one here: > This is incorrect. The London congestion charge zone covers 21 sq km. The proposed Manhatten congestion zone includes only the area below 60th street, which is approximately 20 sq km. They are almost exactly the same size. That's a completely silly comparison. Manhattan is 23 square miles. London is 610 square miles. In other words, the proposed Manhattan congestion area is 33% of Manhattan's total land area, if we accept your assertion of 20 square km (7.72 square miles). The city of London congestion area is only 1.4% of London's land area. But of course, you can see that on the maps I shared. It's plainly visible. It's difficult to define the equivalent proportion for London, because it would be so absurd -- something like everything within A406 and A205. --- Old commment: OK? It's not the technology I have a dispute with, it's the implementation. The way they were planning to do it here involved numerous exceptions necessitated by the sheer scope of the thing (e.g. the FDR and the west side highway) and arcane rules (e.g. one deck/ramp of the queensboro would have it, but not the other) that were necessary to wedge this kind of a system into Manhattan's street system. Because of these, there was almost certainly going to be a mess at the edges of the zone. But also, it should be fairly obvious that a tax on "ULEZ" probably already excludes most vehicles on the road, thus significantly reducing implementation challenges. It's less of an active fare-gathering scheme, and more of an incentive to get people out of older vehicles. We have a similar system in place at time of registration.

_heimdall 2y ago

Serious questions - Do people living outside the city of London also agree it only has benefits? And does it work so well for London because more people actually live in the city, compared to New York City which is comparsrively full of commutors and tourists?

Reason077 2y ago
More than 1 million commuters and tourists travel in to London every day, but the vast majority (> 80%) travel by train/plane/tube/etc. People driving to Central London from elsewhere in the UK often park in outer London, where there are large carparks near major rail stations with fast trains into the center. This saves both time and money!

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

Motorcycles are free in London. NYC was only giving a 50% discount.