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I know someone who tried DMT and it triggered severe long term anxiety in them. They went from a functional professional who had some issues to someone who cou

I know someone who tried DMT and it triggered severe long term anxiety in them. They went from a functional professional who had some issues to someone who couldn't leave the house. That was six years ago and last I checked on them in February their condition has been deteriorating. I don't believe any of these substances will ever be approved for legal medical use. They just seem to unpredictable and can cause as much harm as healing.

stouset 2y ago
And prescription medications don’t have rare but nasty side effects? If these things are unpredictable it’s likely because they simply haven’t been studied in a medical context. At the very least it’s reasonably clear that long-term and debilitating side effects are generally exceedingly rare. More people than you probably expect die from tylenol.
- thepasswordis 2y ago
  I can’t think of a single prescription medication which, when taken according to recommendations, causes permanent, irreversible, traumatic psychological damage after one dose.
  - klyrs 2y ago
    Suicidality is a common side effect of many antidepressants.
    - olleromam91 2y ago
      Not after one prescribed dosage though…that’s the point.
      - wafflemaker 2y ago
        But compared to regular Big Pharma meds, one dose of psychedelics is usually the whole treatment. Getting out of depression or other severe conditions is hard, whether using psychedelics or SSRI. Take care of yourself so you don't get there in the first place.
        tptacek 2y ago
        That's not what this story, or the longer linked New Yorker story about Octavio Rettig, suggests. Further, it's besides the point: the thread you're commenting on is about the potential for grave side effects after a single dose.
  - notfed 2y ago
    "I can't think of" probably isn't the right bar to set for something like this.
  - mrob 2y ago
    It's rare, but fluoroquinolone antibiotics can do it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9830651/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9830651/
  - ta988 2y ago
    The fact that you can't think of it just mean you don't know. Lots drugs have rare but potentially deadly side effects.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
    Medical student here : corticoids definitely can trigger "traumatic psychological damage after one dose". It's also rare but documented. And this serves OPs point well because its so rare partly because we can screen susceptible patients in advance.
- DontchaKnowit 2y ago
  "If these things are unpredictable its likely cause they have not been studied..." Sorry but this is a very ignorant perspective in my opinion. Psychedelics are wildly ubpredictable in their effects, even those that have been extensively studied, like LSD. You cannot predict how an individual will respond. This is also true of many prescription meds.
  - monomyth 2y ago
    wind is unpredictable until you start to study weather patterns
    - DontchaKnowit 2y ago
      Not saying we cant get an understandjng our shouldnt try, but thats not currently where were at.
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Most (all?) drugs have some side effects for at least some people. These things are decided on a case by case basis.
bloudermilk 2y ago
I’m really sorry to hear about your friend. I’ve also had friends who experienced severe mental health issues after big trips. It can really mess things up for people with predispositions. I know many more who find the occasional trip to be a deeply spiritual and restorative experience. Hopefully research can help bring more predictability to reduce the risk. I hope your friend gets the support and treatment they need.
mistrial9 2y ago
there was a woman that moved from the East Coast to California after the untimely death of her adult son. Filled with severe grief she sought out shamanic treatment and bonded with the culture and practices. After a self-described "more than three dozen" full ayahuasca sessions she had a functional life and new interests, came across as a regular adjusted person and overall seemed to be much healed. ymmv
- datameta 2y ago
  Not to take away from the utility of psychedelics as a tool, but I wonder how much healing came from increased community and hobbies. We underestimate how necessary those are for a healthy mindset.
  - monomyth 2y ago
    If a person hadn't experienced a debilitating depression it's hard to imagine what another person is experiencing. All those walks in the park and hobbies sound logical and wonderful, on paper. Reality is a bit different.
    - datameta 2y ago
      I agree that it is quite difficult to bootstrap a hobby practice, or repeatedly involve oneself socially when depressed. Speaking from personal experience in the deep dark pits, what I mean is that we should look at the problem through the lense of the BioPsychoSocial model. Modern medicine is irreplacable but relying solely on medication is a pitfall of modern treatment. It turns out, for example, that chronic pain and depression are interlinked. A messed up neurochemical balance contributes to the erroneous interpretation of signals by the brain as pain (even when no bodily damage exists anymore). So what I'm saying is that while it may seem pointless initially to do that which falls flat in the estimation of a depressed mind (say due to anhedonia) those brief but regular walks in the park contribute to re-stabilization of neurotransmitters along with the medication.
lepus 2y ago
Psychedelics aren't to be taken lightly and should never be first line treatment in my opinion. They can pull down your defense mechanisms, some of which can be very strong, and if you're not ready for it then it can definitely leave you worse off. That doesn't mean they don't have value in a carefully controlled set/setting and dose. Accepted treatments like ECT can absolutely also leave you worse off but in the right people the risk is worth the potential payoff for both.
kinakomochidayo 2y ago
It’s probably important to differentiate NN-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT. I’ve heard that 5-MEO is much more intense than NN-DMT. I’m assuming that you’re talking about NN-DMT. It can definitely shake up the foundations of your world view, especially if not taken with the right set and setting. I don’t think it’s as common with the pure form, but there is a slight possibility of it revealing some underlying emotional issues. There are plenty of functional professionals who carry some significant childhood traumas and issues that may bubble up to the surface through these experiences.
- fnord77 2y ago
  yes, N,N-DMT From what I gather, this person took the DMT in a therapeutic set/setting.
coffeebeqn 2y ago
I’ve also had mostly negative experiences with psylocybin for example. I have some anxiety but it kicks that and mania into a level that I never get in normal life
leptons 2y ago
Not everyone should do psychedelics. Your friend is probably one of those people. I'm curious if they had ever tried any other psychedelics before going to DMT? I think that eating a low dose of psilocybin mushrooms is a much easier way to get introduced to psychedelics, and then if things go well, increase the dose. If the DMT was smoked, then maybe smoking a bit less would be advised at first. Going straight for a high dose of DMT without ever having done any psychedelics before isn't really the best way. I've also witnessed a couple of people take massive hits of DMT and not feel a single thing, which was rather curious. But I doubt that DMT alone would cause the problems in your friend, as NN-DMT is endogenous, it's created in your pineal gland and is thought to have a role in REM sleep. If it was smoked instead of ingested (ayahuasca) then it's metabolized quite rapidly and the trip lasts only about 10 minutes. I'd probably never do the ayahuasca form, as it's a far longer trip and can be difficult to handle (so I've heard). Smoked DMT is really easy in comparison, but can also be very intense.
- fnord77 2y ago
  but how do you know ahead of time who should and shouldn't use these?
monomyth 2y ago
1 in 100 people (or os) is schizophrenic. It's quite predictable what happens when a schizophrenic person takes psychedelics. I am not saying this is your case here. However, if anything your single case example shows inadequacy in the health- and social care systems and not unpredictability of DMT.

stouset 2y ago

And prescription medications don’t have rare but nasty side effects? If these things are unpredictable it’s likely because they simply haven’t been studied in a medical context. At the very least it’s reasonably clear that long-term and debilitating side effects are generally exceedingly rare. More people than you probably expect die from tylenol.

thepasswordis 2y ago
I can’t think of a single prescription medication which, when taken according to recommendations, causes permanent, irreversible, traumatic psychological damage after one dose.
- klyrs 2y ago
  Suicidality is a common side effect of many antidepressants.
  - olleromam91 2y ago
    Not after one prescribed dosage though…that’s the point.
    - wafflemaker 2y ago
      But compared to regular Big Pharma meds, one dose of psychedelics is usually the whole treatment. Getting out of depression or other severe conditions is hard, whether using psychedelics or SSRI. Take care of yourself so you don't get there in the first place.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        That's not what this story, or the longer linked New Yorker story about Octavio Rettig, suggests. Further, it's besides the point: the thread you're commenting on is about the potential for grave side effects after a single dose.
- notfed 2y ago
  "I can't think of" probably isn't the right bar to set for something like this.
- mrob 2y ago
  It's rare, but fluoroquinolone antibiotics can do it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9830651/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9830651/
- ta988 2y ago
  The fact that you can't think of it just mean you don't know. Lots drugs have rare but potentially deadly side effects.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
  Medical student here : corticoids definitely can trigger "traumatic psychological damage after one dose". It's also rare but documented. And this serves OPs point well because its so rare partly because we can screen susceptible patients in advance.
DontchaKnowit 2y ago
"If these things are unpredictable its likely cause they have not been studied..." Sorry but this is a very ignorant perspective in my opinion. Psychedelics are wildly ubpredictable in their effects, even those that have been extensively studied, like LSD. You cannot predict how an individual will respond. This is also true of many prescription meds.
- monomyth 2y ago
  wind is unpredictable until you start to study weather patterns
  - DontchaKnowit 2y ago
    Not saying we cant get an understandjng our shouldnt try, but thats not currently where were at.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

Most (all?) drugs have some side effects for at least some people. These things are decided on a case by case basis.

bloudermilk 2y ago

I’m really sorry to hear about your friend. I’ve also had friends who experienced severe mental health issues after big trips. It can really mess things up for people with predispositions. I know many more who find the occasional trip to be a deeply spiritual and restorative experience. Hopefully research can help bring more predictability to reduce the risk. I hope your friend gets the support and treatment they need.

mistrial9 2y ago

there was a woman that moved from the East Coast to California after the untimely death of her adult son. Filled with severe grief she sought out shamanic treatment and bonded with the culture and practices. After a self-described "more than three dozen" full ayahuasca sessions she had a functional life and new interests, came across as a regular adjusted person and overall seemed to be much healed. ymmv

datameta 2y ago
Not to take away from the utility of psychedelics as a tool, but I wonder how much healing came from increased community and hobbies. We underestimate how necessary those are for a healthy mindset.
- monomyth 2y ago
  If a person hadn't experienced a debilitating depression it's hard to imagine what another person is experiencing. All those walks in the park and hobbies sound logical and wonderful, on paper. Reality is a bit different.
  - datameta 2y ago
    I agree that it is quite difficult to bootstrap a hobby practice, or repeatedly involve oneself socially when depressed. Speaking from personal experience in the deep dark pits, what I mean is that we should look at the problem through the lense of the BioPsychoSocial model. Modern medicine is irreplacable but relying solely on medication is a pitfall of modern treatment. It turns out, for example, that chronic pain and depression are interlinked. A messed up neurochemical balance contributes to the erroneous interpretation of signals by the brain as pain (even when no bodily damage exists anymore). So what I'm saying is that while it may seem pointless initially to do that which falls flat in the estimation of a depressed mind (say due to anhedonia) those brief but regular walks in the park contribute to re-stabilization of neurotransmitters along with the medication.

lepus 2y ago

Psychedelics aren't to be taken lightly and should never be first line treatment in my opinion. They can pull down your defense mechanisms, some of which can be very strong, and if you're not ready for it then it can definitely leave you worse off. That doesn't mean they don't have value in a carefully controlled set/setting and dose. Accepted treatments like ECT can absolutely also leave you worse off but in the right people the risk is worth the potential payoff for both.

kinakomochidayo 2y ago

It’s probably important to differentiate NN-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT. I’ve heard that 5-MEO is much more intense than NN-DMT. I’m assuming that you’re talking about NN-DMT. It can definitely shake up the foundations of your world view, especially if not taken with the right set and setting. I don’t think it’s as common with the pure form, but there is a slight possibility of it revealing some underlying emotional issues. There are plenty of functional professionals who carry some significant childhood traumas and issues that may bubble up to the surface through these experiences.

fnord77 2y ago
yes, N,N-DMT From what I gather, this person took the DMT in a therapeutic set/setting.

coffeebeqn 2y ago

I’ve also had mostly negative experiences with psylocybin for example. I have some anxiety but it kicks that and mania into a level that I never get in normal life

leptons 2y ago

Not everyone should do psychedelics. Your friend is probably one of those people. I'm curious if they had ever tried any other psychedelics before going to DMT? I think that eating a low dose of psilocybin mushrooms is a much easier way to get introduced to psychedelics, and then if things go well, increase the dose. If the DMT was smoked, then maybe smoking a bit less would be advised at first. Going straight for a high dose of DMT without ever having done any psychedelics before isn't really the best way. I've also witnessed a couple of people take massive hits of DMT and not feel a single thing, which was rather curious. But I doubt that DMT alone would cause the problems in your friend, as NN-DMT is endogenous, it's created in your pineal gland and is thought to have a role in REM sleep. If it was smoked instead of ingested (ayahuasca) then it's metabolized quite rapidly and the trip lasts only about 10 minutes. I'd probably never do the ayahuasca form, as it's a far longer trip and can be difficult to handle (so I've heard). Smoked DMT is really easy in comparison, but can also be very intense.

fnord77 2y ago
but how do you know ahead of time who should and shouldn't use these?

monomyth 2y ago

1 in 100 people (or os) is schizophrenic. It's quite predictable what happens when a schizophrenic person takes psychedelics. I am not saying this is your case here. However, if anything your single case example shows inadequacy in the health- and social care systems and not unpredictability of DMT.