4 ms·

Sometimes it feels like the trend online right now is to design everything to make you stupider, on the theory that if it asks less of you will go along with it

by ajkjk 2y ago

Sometimes it feels like the trend online right now is to design everything to make you stupider, on the theory that if it asks less of you will go along with it more easily. For instance, Google results seem more "least common denominator" every month. No longer can I search for something subtle and get subtle results; their algorithm pushes me towards and unhelpful answers. Maybe it's because lots of people do respond better to this, so it shows up better in the data. Anyway I hate it. I would like to gradually learn more as I interact with things, and engage with the complexity in systems, not have it hidden from me.

amelius 2y ago
If you design a system for idiots, only idiots will use it.
- toss1 2y ago
  Sadly there's also the old saying that "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average customer" (P.T. Barnum ?).
  - gwd 2y ago
    I mean, yeah, there are certainly plenty of business models that rely on people not understanding what it is that they're buying. If you want to make your living that way, I can believe it's not that hard. But that doesn't mean that money can't be made by selling to intelligent people and attempting to educate the less informed. I know how I prefer to spend my short time here on Earth.
pier25 2y ago
Maybe at some point Google will release a Classic version of the algo like Coca-Cola did.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  It would be interesting to see, but my guess is that it would be exploited to death very quickly. There is a constant cat and mouse game between search engine and those who want to "optimize" their results. Going back and staying there would be like having the mouse stand still, not good. It would have to be a different product, developed in parallel, rather than a snapshot of the past.
  - xmprt 2y ago
    I don't think it's that simple. It's a cat and mouse game but the cat can't catch two different mice. If the classic Google algorithm is significantly different from the new one, SEO that's targeting the new algorithm wouldn't be as successful with the old one which is also barely used (so no one would bother optimizing for the old algorithm). Then make it so the new algorithm penalizes people abusing the old/simple algorithm (and since the old algorithm is simple, it should be simpler to catch people abusing it too).
    - canadianfella 2y ago
      [dead]
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Obviously the SEO scoundrels would make two pages, each optimized for different algorithm. Websites are effectively free to make.
- lukan 2y ago
  Coca-Cola used cocaine again?
  - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
    It certainly uses Coca leaves. > Coca-Cola might have taken the cocaine out of their drink, but the company still needed to source coca leaves, which became more and more challenging. By 1914, the American federal government had officially restricted cocaine to medicinal use. So, as the government began debating an official import ban, Coke sent its lobbyists into the fray, pushing for a special exemption. Their fingerprints are all over the Harrison Act of 1922, which banned the import of coca leaves, but included a section permitting the use of “de-cocainized coca leaves or preparations made therefrom, or to any other preparations of coca leaves that do not contain cocaine.” Only two companies were given special permits by the act to import those coca leaves for processing — one of which was Maywood Chemical Works, of Maywood, New Jersey, whose biggest customer was the Coca-Cola company. > This special loophole would carry over in every piece of anti-narcotics legislation that followed, including international agreements restricting the global trade in coca leaves. Over the ensuing decades, the company continued to demonstrate the lengths to which they would go to protect their supply, from supporting opposition to the traditional use of coca, to developing a secret coca farm of their own on Hawaiʻi. https://www.eater.com/23620802/cocaine-in-coca-cola-coke-recipe-gastropod https://www.eater.com/23620802/cocaine-in-coca-cola-coke-rec...
    - lukan 2y ago
      That was a surprise. But it is written like it is bad, but I see nothing wrong with what Coca Cola did here. It was "de-cocainized coca leaves" after all. (also, I support decriminalisation of drugs in general)
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  The web the original algo was designed for no longer exists.
civilized 2y ago
Many of you will be familiar with this story: military pilot gear was once designed for the average person, but then they realized that actually, most people deviate significantly from the average in at least one way. So they made the gear adjustable, and that greatly improved performance and reduced mistakes. Why is it that in tech we are often told a seemingly contrary narrative -- that everything is better, or at least more profitable, when targeted to some hypothetical average person, and who cares about the diversity of individuals?
- blargey 2y ago
  Might be that military pilots are much more engaged with the product than the average google-user with search. Or how these digital tools pervade spaces where everyone has to be able to use them, even if they're the type that refuses to engage with the text displayed in message boxes or technical jargon like "files" and "tabs", because they have the expertise that is more valuable to the business than the peripheral software. A greater expectation and insistence that things "just work", that the tools get out of the way instead of integrating with the user. Maybe adjusting some straps and seat positions is more intuitive than digging for advanced options. Maybe it's significantly more difficult to surface options in digital mediums without introducing friction as a side-effect, because you're always fighting over screen real estate and screen legibility, instead of being able to just add a latch on the strap that's there when you need it and invisible when you don't.
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > Maybe adjusting some straps and seat positions is more intuitive than digging for advanced options. Maybe it's significantly more difficult to surface options in digital mediums without introducing friction as a side-effect, because you're always fighting over screen real estate and screen legibility, instead of being able to just add a latch on the strap that's there when you need it and invisible when you don't You design a different car to win F1 races, to take a couch across town, to drive a family on a weekend trip, to win rally races, to haul a boat … but in software we don’t want to do that. We want everything to do everything because “niche” markets are too small for companies to keep growing into the stratosphere. See also: Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can. (zawinski's law)

by ajkjk 2y ago

amelius 2y ago

If you design a system for idiots, only idiots will use it.

toss1 2y ago
Sadly there's also the old saying that "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average customer" (P.T. Barnum ?).
- gwd 2y ago
  I mean, yeah, there are certainly plenty of business models that rely on people not understanding what it is that they're buying. If you want to make your living that way, I can believe it's not that hard. But that doesn't mean that money can't be made by selling to intelligent people and attempting to educate the less informed. I know how I prefer to spend my short time here on Earth.

pier25 2y ago

Maybe at some point Google will release a Classic version of the algo like Coca-Cola did.

GuB-42 2y ago
It would be interesting to see, but my guess is that it would be exploited to death very quickly. There is a constant cat and mouse game between search engine and those who want to "optimize" their results. Going back and staying there would be like having the mouse stand still, not good. It would have to be a different product, developed in parallel, rather than a snapshot of the past.
- xmprt 2y ago
  I don't think it's that simple. It's a cat and mouse game but the cat can't catch two different mice. If the classic Google algorithm is significantly different from the new one, SEO that's targeting the new algorithm wouldn't be as successful with the old one which is also barely used (so no one would bother optimizing for the old algorithm). Then make it so the new algorithm penalizes people abusing the old/simple algorithm (and since the old algorithm is simple, it should be simpler to catch people abusing it too).
  - canadianfella 2y ago
    [dead]
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Obviously the SEO scoundrels would make two pages, each optimized for different algorithm. Websites are effectively free to make.
lukan 2y ago
Coca-Cola used cocaine again?
- PartiallyTyped 2y ago
  It certainly uses Coca leaves. > Coca-Cola might have taken the cocaine out of their drink, but the company still needed to source coca leaves, which became more and more challenging. By 1914, the American federal government had officially restricted cocaine to medicinal use. So, as the government began debating an official import ban, Coke sent its lobbyists into the fray, pushing for a special exemption. Their fingerprints are all over the Harrison Act of 1922, which banned the import of coca leaves, but included a section permitting the use of “de-cocainized coca leaves or preparations made therefrom, or to any other preparations of coca leaves that do not contain cocaine.” Only two companies were given special permits by the act to import those coca leaves for processing — one of which was Maywood Chemical Works, of Maywood, New Jersey, whose biggest customer was the Coca-Cola company. > This special loophole would carry over in every piece of anti-narcotics legislation that followed, including international agreements restricting the global trade in coca leaves. Over the ensuing decades, the company continued to demonstrate the lengths to which they would go to protect their supply, from supporting opposition to the traditional use of coca, to developing a secret coca farm of their own on Hawaiʻi. https://www.eater.com/23620802/cocaine-in-coca-cola-coke-recipe-gastropod https://www.eater.com/23620802/cocaine-in-coca-cola-coke-rec...
  - lukan 2y ago
    That was a surprise. But it is written like it is bad, but I see nothing wrong with what Coca Cola did here. It was "de-cocainized coca leaves" after all. (also, I support decriminalisation of drugs in general)
BurningFrog 2y ago
The web the original algo was designed for no longer exists.

civilized 2y ago

Many of you will be familiar with this story: military pilot gear was once designed for the average person, but then they realized that actually, most people deviate significantly from the average in at least one way. So they made the gear adjustable, and that greatly improved performance and reduced mistakes. Why is it that in tech we are often told a seemingly contrary narrative -- that everything is better, or at least more profitable, when targeted to some hypothetical average person, and who cares about the diversity of individuals?

blargey 2y ago
Might be that military pilots are much more engaged with the product than the average google-user with search. Or how these digital tools pervade spaces where everyone has to be able to use them, even if they're the type that refuses to engage with the text displayed in message boxes or technical jargon like "files" and "tabs", because they have the expertise that is more valuable to the business than the peripheral software. A greater expectation and insistence that things "just work", that the tools get out of the way instead of integrating with the user. Maybe adjusting some straps and seat positions is more intuitive than digging for advanced options. Maybe it's significantly more difficult to surface options in digital mediums without introducing friction as a side-effect, because you're always fighting over screen real estate and screen legibility, instead of being able to just add a latch on the strap that's there when you need it and invisible when you don't.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > Maybe adjusting some straps and seat positions is more intuitive than digging for advanced options. Maybe it's significantly more difficult to surface options in digital mediums without introducing friction as a side-effect, because you're always fighting over screen real estate and screen legibility, instead of being able to just add a latch on the strap that's there when you need it and invisible when you don't You design a different car to win F1 races, to take a couch across town, to drive a family on a weekend trip, to win rally races, to haul a boat … but in software we don’t want to do that. We want everything to do everything because “niche” markets are too small for companies to keep growing into the stratosphere. See also: Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can. (zawinski's law)