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#1 - The China claims are not a lie, e.g.: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic-debate-chinas-human-rights-record-2022-10-06/ https://ww

by nsguy 2y ago

#1 - The China claims are not a lie, e.g.: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic-debate-chinas-human-rights-record-2022-10-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic... You don't get to say "I Googled it and it's a lie". How many security council resolutions and UN general assembly resolutions are there condemning China vs. how many condemning Israel? If you say it's a lie let's have those numbers. The best I can find Googling is: "Joint Statement on Behalf of 50 countries in the UN General Assembly" which is very different than the criticism Israel is getting from the UN. #2 - This is not the argument at all. I'm not even debating "human rights abuses" though I think there's plenty to debate there. Even under the lies propagated by Israel's critics Israel is receiving unfair treatment. #3 - Show me the proof. Don't say "Googleable lies". How are human rights abuses by Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza enforced by the UN? In Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? I mean the list is endless. Give me some measurable criteria that supports your ridiculous claim that equal standards are applied to Israel. Again, without even debating the validity of the claims against Israel, many of which are debatable. #4 - "We" get attacked by the world for using force to defend "our" citizens. The offense in question is daring to do what other countries have done and what international law allows countries to do to defend themselves. Wars are not a sterile matter. The US and the UK e.g. had many questionable incidents in their various endeavours to guy fight random bad guys around the world. Israel is far from perfect and we can ask for a much better government than the bunch of morons running it and we can be critical of many things, but what we're seeing isn't legitimate criticism, what we're seeing is a political lynch mob. #5 - So we should have handed it to Syria, without a peace agreement, so we can have Iran's militias on the high ground above Israel's north and more cities in rocket range? Or we should have kept it as "occupied" territory where people would say "Apartheid", how can you not give those guys rights? Make up your mind, either Israel is "Apartheid" for not giving e.g. Palestinians voting rights, or those are occupied territories that are waiting for a peace agreement? And that ignoring the legal debate about the precise status of those territories.

refulgentis 2y ago
I'm a Zionist. Please don't troll me about being part of some They screaming apartheid, and please don't troll about how you can't find any security council resolutions on China. It cheapens our cause. Shameful. People are smart enough to see that, and it's clear you think about this enough to know exactly what you're doing by bemoaning the lack of security council censure of China, and it cheapens our cause to have behavior like that affiliated it with it.
- nsguy 2y ago
  I'm not trolling. Can you make a coherent counter argument that's not "I'm a Zionist stop embarrassing us". I'm stupid. Explain your position to me. Is your point "ofcourse the security council is not going to go after China" or is your point "they go after China, who is really committing a genocide, just the same way they go after Israel fighting a war", or is your point "China is cool, Israel is committing the terrible crimes and so ofcourse the UN goes after it"? Tell me what you're claiming and what metric or some objective method we should use to measure your claim. I'm claiming Israel is picked on in the UN disproportionately. I can't even tell from your reply what's your position on this topic. I wouldn't call myself a Zionist. I'm an (ex-)Israeli. The right of the Jewish people to live in Israel is an axiom for me. It's ridiculous that's debated. It's a fact and Israel is not going away. I think your point is maybe don't use China as an excuse. That's maybe fair enough. But it's not the topic. I'm not debating whether Israel should have a pass for genocide because China does, I'm debating whether Israel is disproportionately attacked which is what I would consider antisemitism. This claim can be debated independently of the other multiple things there are to debate here. Israel should not have free pass to do anything and it should also not be subjected to the lynch mob it's being subjected to, these are not mutually exclusive.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    How were all security council resolutions on Israel blocked, until one got through, 2 months ago? How can a security council resolution be blocked? Who is on the Security Council? If you just don't know the basics of what you're talking about, my apologies, not a troll, just ignorant, opinionated, and willing to claim anything and everything for your argument, and make others do the work of explaining why the refs aren't rigged while you weaponize dead bodies to make your argument for it
    - nsguy 2y ago
      I'm sorry but you are still avoiding my topic. Is or isn't Israel singled out by the UN? What is the metric of your choice? What is your opinion/position? Pick Asad killing 600,000 civilians or pick other examples of your choice and metrics of your choice. UN Security Council resolutions against China is technically a dumb example on my side but my original statement you called a lie was: > We can measure "unjustly singled out" fairly well. > How much condemnation from the UN has China received for what it's doing to the Uyghurs? > How many times has the UN security council discussed that vs. discussions related to Israel? You googled that and found it's a lie. That means China was discussed more times? (veto isn't relevant to this question) The UN has otherwise condemned China (veto isn't relevant to that either) more times than Israel? What exactly is the lie here? The US vetoes some/most security council resolutions against Israel. And sure, China can and will veto resolutions against itself. So that is your counter argument? As I said, you pick the metric. How many vetoed resolutions were there against Israel and how many against China? How many meetings to discuss these issues? If the security council wants to make a statement, as it seems to want to do endlessly against the US and Israel, then certainly it can keep bringing proposals and let China veto them, right? What about the general assembly? China has no vetoes there. I picked China off the top of my head as one of an infinite list of severe human rights violations that the UN shrugs off. Maybe it wasn't the best example. We can pick the Turkish and the Kurds. We can pick Syria. We can pick Azerbaijan. We can pick Pakistan. Saudi's actions in Yemen. I mean literally the list of "bad things that happen in the world that nobody cares about because no Jews" is endless. Most of the world is in a terrible state. You're nitpicking me on veto rights but you're not addressing my point. Israel is singled out. It is the target of endless lies and racism. It is the target of antisemitism. There is no doubt about that and I'm not sure how you can be a "Zionist" and not see that. This does not mean everything Israel does is right or that there's no criticism to be levelled at it. My argument isn't Israel should get a free pass because look how bad the world is. My argument is Israel is subject to antisemitism and double standards. And this is before we even start debating the facts of the war and the history of the conflict. EDIT: "The Preoccupation of the United Nations with Israel: Evidence and Theory" - https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/105108/1/cesifo_wp5034.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/105108/1/cesifo_wp50... "The UN and Israel: A history of discrimination" - https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/wrldaf176&div=53&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/... "The United Nations Human Rights Council and Israel: Sour Old Wine in a New Bottle" - https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/huriglolr5&div=6&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

by nsguy 2y ago

refulgentis 2y ago

I'm a Zionist. Please don't troll me about being part of some They screaming apartheid, and please don't troll about how you can't find any security council resolutions on China. It cheapens our cause. Shameful. People are smart enough to see that, and it's clear you think about this enough to know exactly what you're doing by bemoaning the lack of security council censure of China, and it cheapens our cause to have behavior like that affiliated it with it.

nsguy 2y ago
I'm not trolling. Can you make a coherent counter argument that's not "I'm a Zionist stop embarrassing us". I'm stupid. Explain your position to me. Is your point "ofcourse the security council is not going to go after China" or is your point "they go after China, who is really committing a genocide, just the same way they go after Israel fighting a war", or is your point "China is cool, Israel is committing the terrible crimes and so ofcourse the UN goes after it"? Tell me what you're claiming and what metric or some objective method we should use to measure your claim. I'm claiming Israel is picked on in the UN disproportionately. I can't even tell from your reply what's your position on this topic. I wouldn't call myself a Zionist. I'm an (ex-)Israeli. The right of the Jewish people to live in Israel is an axiom for me. It's ridiculous that's debated. It's a fact and Israel is not going away. I think your point is maybe don't use China as an excuse. That's maybe fair enough. But it's not the topic. I'm not debating whether Israel should have a pass for genocide because China does, I'm debating whether Israel is disproportionately attacked which is what I would consider antisemitism. This claim can be debated independently of the other multiple things there are to debate here. Israel should not have free pass to do anything and it should also not be subjected to the lynch mob it's being subjected to, these are not mutually exclusive.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  How were all security council resolutions on Israel blocked, until one got through, 2 months ago? How can a security council resolution be blocked? Who is on the Security Council? If you just don't know the basics of what you're talking about, my apologies, not a troll, just ignorant, opinionated, and willing to claim anything and everything for your argument, and make others do the work of explaining why the refs aren't rigged while you weaponize dead bodies to make your argument for it
  - nsguy 2y ago
    I'm sorry but you are still avoiding my topic. Is or isn't Israel singled out by the UN? What is the metric of your choice? What is your opinion/position? Pick Asad killing 600,000 civilians or pick other examples of your choice and metrics of your choice. UN Security Council resolutions against China is technically a dumb example on my side but my original statement you called a lie was: > We can measure "unjustly singled out" fairly well. > How much condemnation from the UN has China received for what it's doing to the Uyghurs? > How many times has the UN security council discussed that vs. discussions related to Israel? You googled that and found it's a lie. That means China was discussed more times? (veto isn't relevant to this question) The UN has otherwise condemned China (veto isn't relevant to that either) more times than Israel? What exactly is the lie here? The US vetoes some/most security council resolutions against Israel. And sure, China can and will veto resolutions against itself. So that is your counter argument? As I said, you pick the metric. How many vetoed resolutions were there against Israel and how many against China? How many meetings to discuss these issues? If the security council wants to make a statement, as it seems to want to do endlessly against the US and Israel, then certainly it can keep bringing proposals and let China veto them, right? What about the general assembly? China has no vetoes there. I picked China off the top of my head as one of an infinite list of severe human rights violations that the UN shrugs off. Maybe it wasn't the best example. We can pick the Turkish and the Kurds. We can pick Syria. We can pick Azerbaijan. We can pick Pakistan. Saudi's actions in Yemen. I mean literally the list of "bad things that happen in the world that nobody cares about because no Jews" is endless. Most of the world is in a terrible state. You're nitpicking me on veto rights but you're not addressing my point. Israel is singled out. It is the target of endless lies and racism. It is the target of antisemitism. There is no doubt about that and I'm not sure how you can be a "Zionist" and not see that. This does not mean everything Israel does is right or that there's no criticism to be levelled at it. My argument isn't Israel should get a free pass because look how bad the world is. My argument is Israel is subject to antisemitism and double standards. And this is before we even start debating the facts of the war and the history of the conflict. EDIT: "The Preoccupation of the United Nations with Israel: Evidence and Theory" - https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/105108/1/cesifo_wp5034.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/105108/1/cesifo_wp50... "The UN and Israel: A history of discrimination" - https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/wrldaf176&div=53&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/... "The United Nations Human Rights Council and Israel: Sour Old Wine in a New Bottle" - https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/huriglolr5&div=6&id=&page= https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...