4 ms·

Sometimes I wonder if we've regressed in terms of attention to quality. Here in the US, I see lots of potholes on the streets and sidewalks. Meanwhile, the anci

Sometimes I wonder if we've regressed in terms of attention to quality. Here in the US, I see lots of potholes on the streets and sidewalks. Meanwhile, the ancient cobblestone roads are still functional to this day.

TimedToasts 2y ago
Drive a semi over those cobblestones daily for a year and we'll see how they are doing.
- trgn 2y ago
  For sure, but unfair comparison. Leave an asphalt road unattended for 10 years and it's cracked and overgrown, barely better than a dirtroad. A cobblestone at least will be salvageable, just will need a good weed wacking. Baseline quality is just higher.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hombre_fatal 2y ago
    They're pointing out the ridiculousness of the original comparison. But you made the same bad comparison as the original one since only the asphalt road can bear the loads of modern traffic.
bluGill 2y ago
Potholes are not regression. They are a good cost effect response. We can build roads that won't have potholes, but at vastly more cost, it is better in the long run to build roads as we do and then fix potholes every year. Cobblestones also get potholes and the like when subject to heavy car traffic.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  The neighbors on my block share a gravel alleyway, which develops enormous potholes over time. The city does not maintain it, so we all chip in every couple of years to have it re-graded. One of our neighbors, who happens to own a few expensive sports cars, wants us to have the alley paved with asphalt instead: but it will take twenty years of regrading before the project would break even.
more_corn 2y ago
Watch a video on roman road construction methods. It seems they prided themselves on building for the long term. Retrieval augmented generation from incomplete archive: The foundation of the road consists of 3’ of gravel covered with 2’ of sand forming an extremely stable base. I seem to also recall that builders got paid half upon completion and half if the construction was still in good condition fifty years later. (Though this is probably apocryphal for the obvious reasons)
palata 2y ago
> Sometimes I wonder if we've regressed in terms of attention to quality. In a way we have, yes! In our modern society we optimize for profit. Always, everywhere. The reasons our roads won't last thousands of years is precisely that it would be less profitable.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  The Roman roads wouldn’t be pleasant to drive on at all. Also the Romans certainly must have been more obsessed by profit than us? They state was built on subjugation and enslavement of basically all the people they came into contact with.
  - palata 2y ago
    > The Roman roads wouldn’t be pleasant to drive on at all. Sure, but that was not my point. > Also the Romans certainly must have been more obsessed by profit than us? I don't know, I wouldn't say "certainly". I am not really sure how one can be more obsessed by profit than us. We literally care more about profit (GNI) than our survival (climate change, energy crisis, biodiversity crisis). > They state was built on subjugation and enslavement of basically all the people they came into contact with. You don't really know how Rome worked, do you? Because they had slaves does not mean they enslaved "all the people they came into contact with". The Roman society is actually super interesting when you look into it.
    - wredcoll 2y ago
      > You don't really know how Rome worked, do you? Because they had slaves does not mean they enslaved "all the people they came into contact with". The Roman society is actually super interesting when you look into it They certainly enslaved a hell of a lot of them. Like everyone else, they had good points and bad points but they were pretty far from a meritocratic democracy as we would think of the terms today.
      - palata 2y ago
        They did enslave people, that's for sure. Just not "all the people they came into contact with".
bee_rider 2y ago
Somebody mentioned semis already, but also, I bet Roman engineers would give up immediately if they saw a snowplow.
colechristensen 2y ago
They used to pour molten iron in holes in their cobblestone roads. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pompeii-fixed-potholes-molten-iron-180972203/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pompeii-fixed-poth...
szvsw 2y ago
The network scale, network density, frequency of use, and loading conditions are all like, orders of magnitude higher. Plus as other commenters have mentioned, weather conditions tend to be more extreme than the Mediterranean, and additionally, designing for serviceability can have significant advantages.
readthenotes1 2y ago
Bad roads are safer. We design our roads to be driven much faster than anyone should. Potholes and rough areas slow us down
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  There are a few studies, with arguable relevancy that discovered that roads that are safe but look dangerous are safer than merely safe roads. None of that has any relation at all with potholes. Potholes are dangerous and may not be even noticeable at a distance.
- kbolino 2y ago
  Controlled-access freeways (interstates, motorways, autobahns) have much lower accident rates per mile than other roads with lower speed limits and more distractions. Of course, the two broad categories of road largely serve different purposes, so one can't go around replacing side streets with freeways, either.
panick21_ 2y ago
Cars are the problem. And just FYI roman roads were maintained. We dont have documentation on this from the early imperial period. But from the Byzantine period we know that there were local people responsible for maintenance. And we also know that even during Byzantine times many roads were reverting to nature. Road maintence was a real problem.
gtmitchell 2y ago
Rome had the advantage of access to essentially unlimited forced labor in order to build and maintain their infrastructure. Modern engineering is absolutely superior to Roman engineering, but we do have to contend with budget constraints, at least in part because we're not using slavery to build our roads.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  Also the types of roads the Romans were building wouldn’t be particularly useful or pleasant to use.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  They still had to feed the slaves, and they were certainly not unlimited. In fact, many roads were built by Roman legions themselves, not slaves. (the engineers were also soldiers).
tamimio 2y ago
Wait till you see Canadian roads.. But the real reason is construction mafia, to keep their work going, if they made it high quality they are out of government maintenance contracts in the coming years.
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
I've done some research on this. For one thing, cobblestone roads wouldn't last so long under the weight and shear forces of modern vehicles. Y'know when Wile E. Coyote skids to a stop so hard that the road under him wrinkles up like a rug? A loaded semi truck braking hard can actually make asphalt do that, just as an example of the kind of forces involved. For another, cobbles that are even a little bit wet become slippery deathtraps at even moderate driving speeds. Even when they're dry, highway speeds are going to be very uncomfortably bumpy. Hard on people and hardware both. Basically, a good driving road requires a surface that is extremely smooth but also somewhat tacky, and that really limits what other properties it can have. You can't build something like that out of durable stone.
vikingerik 2y ago
There is survivor bias to consider: we don't see any ancient roads that didn't survive, if it became overgrown from neglect or damaged by erosion or water or whatever.

TimedToasts 2y ago

Drive a semi over those cobblestones daily for a year and we'll see how they are doing.

trgn 2y ago
For sure, but unfair comparison. Leave an asphalt road unattended for 10 years and it's cracked and overgrown, barely better than a dirtroad. A cobblestone at least will be salvageable, just will need a good weed wacking. Baseline quality is just higher.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  They're pointing out the ridiculousness of the original comparison. But you made the same bad comparison as the original one since only the asphalt road can bear the loads of modern traffic.

bluGill 2y ago

Potholes are not regression. They are a good cost effect response. We can build roads that won't have potholes, but at vastly more cost, it is better in the long run to build roads as we do and then fix potholes every year. Cobblestones also get potholes and the like when subject to heavy car traffic.

marssaxman 2y ago
The neighbors on my block share a gravel alleyway, which develops enormous potholes over time. The city does not maintain it, so we all chip in every couple of years to have it re-graded. One of our neighbors, who happens to own a few expensive sports cars, wants us to have the alley paved with asphalt instead: but it will take twenty years of regrading before the project would break even.

more_corn 2y ago

Watch a video on roman road construction methods. It seems they prided themselves on building for the long term. Retrieval augmented generation from incomplete archive: The foundation of the road consists of 3’ of gravel covered with 2’ of sand forming an extremely stable base. I seem to also recall that builders got paid half upon completion and half if the construction was still in good condition fifty years later. (Though this is probably apocryphal for the obvious reasons)

palata 2y ago

> Sometimes I wonder if we've regressed in terms of attention to quality. In a way we have, yes! In our modern society we optimize for profit. Always, everywhere. The reasons our roads won't last thousands of years is precisely that it would be less profitable.

ffgjgf1 2y ago
The Roman roads wouldn’t be pleasant to drive on at all. Also the Romans certainly must have been more obsessed by profit than us? They state was built on subjugation and enslavement of basically all the people they came into contact with.
- palata 2y ago
  > The Roman roads wouldn’t be pleasant to drive on at all. Sure, but that was not my point. > Also the Romans certainly must have been more obsessed by profit than us? I don't know, I wouldn't say "certainly". I am not really sure how one can be more obsessed by profit than us. We literally care more about profit (GNI) than our survival (climate change, energy crisis, biodiversity crisis). > They state was built on subjugation and enslavement of basically all the people they came into contact with. You don't really know how Rome worked, do you? Because they had slaves does not mean they enslaved "all the people they came into contact with". The Roman society is actually super interesting when you look into it.
  - wredcoll 2y ago
    > You don't really know how Rome worked, do you? Because they had slaves does not mean they enslaved "all the people they came into contact with". The Roman society is actually super interesting when you look into it They certainly enslaved a hell of a lot of them. Like everyone else, they had good points and bad points but they were pretty far from a meritocratic democracy as we would think of the terms today.
    - palata 2y ago
      They did enslave people, that's for sure. Just not "all the people they came into contact with".

bee_rider 2y ago

Somebody mentioned semis already, but also, I bet Roman engineers would give up immediately if they saw a snowplow.

colechristensen 2y ago

They used to pour molten iron in holes in their cobblestone roads. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pompeii-fixed-potholes-molten-iron-180972203/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pompeii-fixed-poth...

szvsw 2y ago

The network scale, network density, frequency of use, and loading conditions are all like, orders of magnitude higher. Plus as other commenters have mentioned, weather conditions tend to be more extreme than the Mediterranean, and additionally, designing for serviceability can have significant advantages.

readthenotes1 2y ago

Bad roads are safer. We design our roads to be driven much faster than anyone should. Potholes and rough areas slow us down

marcosdumay 2y ago
There are a few studies, with arguable relevancy that discovered that roads that are safe but look dangerous are safer than merely safe roads. None of that has any relation at all with potholes. Potholes are dangerous and may not be even noticeable at a distance.
kbolino 2y ago
Controlled-access freeways (interstates, motorways, autobahns) have much lower accident rates per mile than other roads with lower speed limits and more distractions. Of course, the two broad categories of road largely serve different purposes, so one can't go around replacing side streets with freeways, either.

panick21_ 2y ago

Cars are the problem. And just FYI roman roads were maintained. We dont have documentation on this from the early imperial period. But from the Byzantine period we know that there were local people responsible for maintenance. And we also know that even during Byzantine times many roads were reverting to nature. Road maintence was a real problem.

gtmitchell 2y ago

Rome had the advantage of access to essentially unlimited forced labor in order to build and maintain their infrastructure. Modern engineering is absolutely superior to Roman engineering, but we do have to contend with budget constraints, at least in part because we're not using slavery to build our roads.

ffgjgf1 2y ago
Also the types of roads the Romans were building wouldn’t be particularly useful or pleasant to use.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
They still had to feed the slaves, and they were certainly not unlimited. In fact, many roads were built by Roman legions themselves, not slaves. (the engineers were also soldiers).

tamimio 2y ago

Wait till you see Canadian roads.. But the real reason is construction mafia, to keep their work going, if they made it high quality they are out of government maintenance contracts in the coming years.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago

I've done some research on this. For one thing, cobblestone roads wouldn't last so long under the weight and shear forces of modern vehicles. Y'know when Wile E. Coyote skids to a stop so hard that the road under him wrinkles up like a rug? A loaded semi truck braking hard can actually make asphalt do that, just as an example of the kind of forces involved. For another, cobbles that are even a little bit wet become slippery deathtraps at even moderate driving speeds. Even when they're dry, highway speeds are going to be very uncomfortably bumpy. Hard on people and hardware both. Basically, a good driving road requires a surface that is extremely smooth but also somewhat tacky, and that really limits what other properties it can have. You can't build something like that out of durable stone.

vikingerik 2y ago

There is survivor bias to consider: we don't see any ancient roads that didn't survive, if it became overgrown from neglect or damaged by erosion or water or whatever.