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I feel like comparing just to china is an unconvincing argument. I think a more reasonable argument would be number of resolutions relative to the behavior in

I feel like comparing just to china is an unconvincing argument. I think a more reasonable argument would be number of resolutions relative to the behavior in question and the types of behavior that are criticized. Israel has basically been condemed more times than all the other countries combined. At the same time while Israel is not perfect there are objectively much worse countries out there. There are countries ot there where citizens have no civil rights, there are countries where slavery is effectively still a thing, etc. It seems impossible to explain this disparity of attention except by politicization and bias. Second the behavior criticized often seems quite minor compared to things in other countries the human rights council is silent about. For example, in 2018 Israel was condemed for allowing people in the golan heights to vote in municipal elections. The argument goes that since that should be syrian territory, its wrong to treat the people there like citizens. Without getting into the pros and cons of whether that is right or wrong, it seems crazy that given all the terrible human rights abuses in the world, extending voting rights to people is what the human rights council is trying to stop.

refulgentis 2y ago
This is exactly what I'm referring to in the root comment. #1) The China claims are straight up lies. I'm a Zionist, I was willing to believe it, then I googled it. #2) "our human rights abuses aren't relevant because there's others" isn't convincing #3) the implication that other human rights abuses aren't policed is another google-able lie #4) we got slapped on the wrist by the world for being an offender, thus we are a victim, is obviously fallacious in a way that is alarming to anyone who isn't prioritizing self-soothing, instead of prioritizing Zionism #5) the Golan Heights stuff is really rank. It's not about "preventing voting" it's about turning territory that isn't Israel's into Israel's, a huge, massive, problem and violation of international law for many, many, many years
- nsguy 2y ago
  #1 - The China claims are not a lie, e.g.: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic-debate-chinas-human-rights-record-2022-10-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic... You don't get to say "I Googled it and it's a lie". How many security council resolutions and UN general assembly resolutions are there condemning China vs. how many condemning Israel? If you say it's a lie let's have those numbers. The best I can find Googling is: "Joint Statement on Behalf of 50 countries in the UN General Assembly" which is very different than the criticism Israel is getting from the UN. #2 - This is not the argument at all. I'm not even debating "human rights abuses" though I think there's plenty to debate there. Even under the lies propagated by Israel's critics Israel is receiving unfair treatment. #3 - Show me the proof. Don't say "Googleable lies". How are human rights abuses by Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza enforced by the UN? In Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? I mean the list is endless. Give me some measurable criteria that supports your ridiculous claim that equal standards are applied to Israel. Again, without even debating the validity of the claims against Israel, many of which are debatable. #4 - "We" get attacked by the world for using force to defend "our" citizens. The offense in question is daring to do what other countries have done and what international law allows countries to do to defend themselves. Wars are not a sterile matter. The US and the UK e.g. had many questionable incidents in their various endeavours to guy fight random bad guys around the world. Israel is far from perfect and we can ask for a much better government than the bunch of morons running it and we can be critical of many things, but what we're seeing isn't legitimate criticism, what we're seeing is a political lynch mob. #5 - So we should have handed it to Syria, without a peace agreement, so we can have Iran's militias on the high ground above Israel's north and more cities in rocket range? Or we should have kept it as "occupied" territory where people would say "Apartheid", how can you not give those guys rights? Make up your mind, either Israel is "Apartheid" for not giving e.g. Palestinians voting rights, or those are occupied territories that are waiting for a peace agreement? And that ignoring the legal debate about the precise status of those territories.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    I'm a Zionist. Please don't troll me about being part of some They screaming apartheid, and please don't troll about how you can't find any security council resolutions on China. It cheapens our cause. Shameful. People are smart enough to see that, and it's clear you think about this enough to know exactly what you're doing by bemoaning the lack of security council censure of China, and it cheapens our cause to have behavior like that affiliated it with it.
    - nsguy 2y ago
      I'm not trolling. Can you make a coherent counter argument that's not "I'm a Zionist stop embarrassing us". I'm stupid. Explain your position to me. Is your point "ofcourse the security council is not going to go after China" or is your point "they go after China, who is really committing a genocide, just the same way they go after Israel fighting a war", or is your point "China is cool, Israel is committing the terrible crimes and so ofcourse the UN goes after it"? Tell me what you're claiming and what metric or some objective method we should use to measure your claim. I'm claiming Israel is picked on in the UN disproportionately. I can't even tell from your reply what's your position on this topic. I wouldn't call myself a Zionist. I'm an (ex-)Israeli. The right of the Jewish people to live in Israel is an axiom for me. It's ridiculous that's debated. It's a fact and Israel is not going away. I think your point is maybe don't use China as an excuse. That's maybe fair enough. But it's not the topic. I'm not debating whether Israel should have a pass for genocide because China does, I'm debating whether Israel is disproportionately attacked which is what I would consider antisemitism. This claim can be debated independently of the other multiple things there are to debate here. Israel should not have free pass to do anything and it should also not be subjected to the lynch mob it's being subjected to, these are not mutually exclusive.
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        How were all security council resolutions on Israel blocked, until one got through, 2 months ago? How can a security council resolution be blocked? Who is on the Security Council? If you just don't know the basics of what you're talking about, my apologies, not a troll, just ignorant, opinionated, and willing to claim anything and everything for your argument, and make others do the work of explaining why the refs aren't rigged while you weaponize dead bodies to make your argument for it
nsguy 2y ago
Sure. I'm not doing a PhD thesis on this topic. I just came up with one example on the fly. I don't think it's particularly unconvincing but anyways. My main point is that we can actual quantitatively convince ourselves that Israel is singled out. Re: Golan heights that's a particularly interesting example since if Israel does not let people vote in occupied territories then it's condemned as an "Apartheid State". But if it does then it's condemned for something else. Basically Israel can not win, condamned if it does, condamned if it doesn't.

refulgentis 2y ago

This is exactly what I'm referring to in the root comment. #1) The China claims are straight up lies. I'm a Zionist, I was willing to believe it, then I googled it. #2) "our human rights abuses aren't relevant because there's others" isn't convincing #3) the implication that other human rights abuses aren't policed is another google-able lie #4) we got slapped on the wrist by the world for being an offender, thus we are a victim, is obviously fallacious in a way that is alarming to anyone who isn't prioritizing self-soothing, instead of prioritizing Zionism #5) the Golan Heights stuff is really rank. It's not about "preventing voting" it's about turning territory that isn't Israel's into Israel's, a huge, massive, problem and violation of international law for many, many, many years

nsguy 2y ago
#1 - The China claims are not a lie, e.g.: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic-debate-chinas-human-rights-record-2022-10-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/un-body-rejects-historic... You don't get to say "I Googled it and it's a lie". How many security council resolutions and UN general assembly resolutions are there condemning China vs. how many condemning Israel? If you say it's a lie let's have those numbers. The best I can find Googling is: "Joint Statement on Behalf of 50 countries in the UN General Assembly" which is very different than the criticism Israel is getting from the UN. #2 - This is not the argument at all. I'm not even debating "human rights abuses" though I think there's plenty to debate there. Even under the lies propagated by Israel's critics Israel is receiving unfair treatment. #3 - Show me the proof. Don't say "Googleable lies". How are human rights abuses by Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza enforced by the UN? In Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? I mean the list is endless. Give me some measurable criteria that supports your ridiculous claim that equal standards are applied to Israel. Again, without even debating the validity of the claims against Israel, many of which are debatable. #4 - "We" get attacked by the world for using force to defend "our" citizens. The offense in question is daring to do what other countries have done and what international law allows countries to do to defend themselves. Wars are not a sterile matter. The US and the UK e.g. had many questionable incidents in their various endeavours to guy fight random bad guys around the world. Israel is far from perfect and we can ask for a much better government than the bunch of morons running it and we can be critical of many things, but what we're seeing isn't legitimate criticism, what we're seeing is a political lynch mob. #5 - So we should have handed it to Syria, without a peace agreement, so we can have Iran's militias on the high ground above Israel's north and more cities in rocket range? Or we should have kept it as "occupied" territory where people would say "Apartheid", how can you not give those guys rights? Make up your mind, either Israel is "Apartheid" for not giving e.g. Palestinians voting rights, or those are occupied territories that are waiting for a peace agreement? And that ignoring the legal debate about the precise status of those territories.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  I'm a Zionist. Please don't troll me about being part of some They screaming apartheid, and please don't troll about how you can't find any security council resolutions on China. It cheapens our cause. Shameful. People are smart enough to see that, and it's clear you think about this enough to know exactly what you're doing by bemoaning the lack of security council censure of China, and it cheapens our cause to have behavior like that affiliated it with it.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    I'm not trolling. Can you make a coherent counter argument that's not "I'm a Zionist stop embarrassing us". I'm stupid. Explain your position to me. Is your point "ofcourse the security council is not going to go after China" or is your point "they go after China, who is really committing a genocide, just the same way they go after Israel fighting a war", or is your point "China is cool, Israel is committing the terrible crimes and so ofcourse the UN goes after it"? Tell me what you're claiming and what metric or some objective method we should use to measure your claim. I'm claiming Israel is picked on in the UN disproportionately. I can't even tell from your reply what's your position on this topic. I wouldn't call myself a Zionist. I'm an (ex-)Israeli. The right of the Jewish people to live in Israel is an axiom for me. It's ridiculous that's debated. It's a fact and Israel is not going away. I think your point is maybe don't use China as an excuse. That's maybe fair enough. But it's not the topic. I'm not debating whether Israel should have a pass for genocide because China does, I'm debating whether Israel is disproportionately attacked which is what I would consider antisemitism. This claim can be debated independently of the other multiple things there are to debate here. Israel should not have free pass to do anything and it should also not be subjected to the lynch mob it's being subjected to, these are not mutually exclusive.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      How were all security council resolutions on Israel blocked, until one got through, 2 months ago? How can a security council resolution be blocked? Who is on the Security Council? If you just don't know the basics of what you're talking about, my apologies, not a troll, just ignorant, opinionated, and willing to claim anything and everything for your argument, and make others do the work of explaining why the refs aren't rigged while you weaponize dead bodies to make your argument for it

nsguy 2y ago

Sure. I'm not doing a PhD thesis on this topic. I just came up with one example on the fly. I don't think it's particularly unconvincing but anyways. My main point is that we can actual quantitatively convince ourselves that Israel is singled out. Re: Golan heights that's a particularly interesting example since if Israel does not let people vote in occupied territories then it's condemned as an "Apartheid State". But if it does then it's condemned for something else. Basically Israel can not win, condamned if it does, condamned if it doesn't.