6 ms·

"The implicit assumption central to this way of organising the economy is that anything legally on sale is "safe". That it has been checked and approved by expe

by alvah 2y ago

"The implicit assumption central to this way of organising the economy is that anything legally on sale is "safe". That it has been checked and approved by experts that know what they are doing and have the consumer interest as top priority. People will not rush back home to their chemistry labs to check what is in their purchased food, whether it corresponds to the label (assuming that such a label even exists) and what might be the short or long term health effects. They dont have the knowledge, resources and time to do that for all the stuff they get exposed to." What you describe is a feature of a high-trust society, where you don't have to double-check every single transaction or interaction you enter into, but can take most statements on trust. This allows people to get on with the fundamental task at hand, rather than dealing with the overhead of checking their food in the chemistry lab, or whatever the equivalent is for the specific transaction. I have read suggestions that this was a major contributor to the growth of the Western economies, relative to other low-trust societies. If this was the case, we are in for a bumpy ride, as we seem to be rapidly changing from a high-trust to a low-trust society.

soco 2y ago
"I have read suggestions that this was a major contributor to the growth of the Western economies, relative to other low-trust societies." I'm not sure I follow, what are other low trust societies? Otherwise I'm with you here - living in a cabin in the woods survivalist-mode does nothing to progress a society.
- dbspin 2y ago
  This pew research article from 2008 (prior to the decline of trust in the West) illustrates some examples and the knock on or related differences between low and high trust societies - https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/04/15/where-trust-is...
- _heimdall 2y ago
  > living in a cabin in the woods survivalist-mode does nothing to progress a society. Not everyone's goal is to progress a society though. If one's goal is to live a quiet life and do what makes them happy, what's wrong with living in a cabin in the woods? That would only be a fundamental problem if everyone owes something to society. That's a much different conversation though, whether everyone is born into a debt that must be paid back to society.
  - tsukikage 2y ago
    If handiwork and subsistence farming are not what makes you happy, living in a cabin in the woods will not make you happy, because when you cannot outsource them to the rest of society, nearly all your time will be spent doing those things in order to survive. Even once these basics are sorted, you will only live happily outside society as long as you are lucky enough to stay healthy.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      If handiwork and producing or finding your own food is what makes you happy, then why does it matter whether you are outsourcing to society? The second sounds like a separate goal unto itself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, or with having multiple goals, but if you start by saying doing X makes you happy then it doesn't really make sense to say doing X won't actually make you happy because you aren't doing Y.
      - pessimizer 2y ago
        People don't have the physical or mental ability to live alone. Their version of "alone" is a world where there are institutions that exist to protect their property, guarantee their transactions, and where they are supplied with a massive amount of high-quality manufactured goods. Paying for them doesn't make you somehow independent of society, it's the nature of society. You're trading bits of paper with government promises printed on them.
        _heimdall 2y ago
        There's a big difference in living alone versus living in a big city though. Living in a cabin in the woods, as the example here, doesn't mean alone and cut off from everyone else. It likely just means a quieter, more self sufficient life. Presumably if one is actually living alone in the woods they wouldn't be dependent on the larger societal systems like money, security, manufactured goods, etc. How would the get the money to start with without having a job that interacts with the outside world?
- goda90 2y ago
  Societies with lots of corruption, adulteration, theft, forgery, counterfeit, etc that goes under-punished. If you are frequently burned by your transactions and interactions with business, government, etc you're going to have low trust.
  - HarryHirsch 2y ago
    There's a wrinkle to that - here's a vidio from the Indian trading standards authority to detect adulterated salt: https://youtu.be/x3CWvI_AWkU https://youtu.be/x3CWvI_AWkU That's the government actually doing its job for once, but you can't check at home for data safeguarding.
- PKop 2y ago
  >what are other low trust societies Look at the graph here on the wallet study, should give you an idea. China is a good example. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712
- whearyou 2y ago
  For a case study, Israel vs eg Egypt. Though, for Israel that is changing for the worse - less trust in the government and each other.
  - notjoemama 2y ago
    They're having the same problems with political extremism as the US. To be clear, this is both that political figures are leaning towards the extreme ends of their ideologies, as well as a culture of dogma and isolation that pushes them and their citizens towards extremes.
    - bishbosh 2y ago
      >To be clear, this is both that political figures are leaning towards the extreme ends of their ideologies Meaning you believe Biden leans towards the extreme left?
- rolph 2y ago
  i live in a cabin in the woods, we have different lifestyles too. im very technical, my nieghbour 'grizzly annie' is the opposite, but we trade back n forth.
- luqtas 2y ago
  Henry David Thoreau lived in a cabin for 2 years & that probably had societal impact... string from Wiki: "Thoreau's philosophy of civil disobedience later influenced the political thoughts and actions of notable figures such as Leo Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr."
  - magarnicle 2y ago
    From what I remember, his reasons for living in the cabin are only explained at the end of the book. I wonder if people forget or are unaware of his intentions and just remember the 'dropping out of society' part.
    - luqtas 2y ago
      my memory doesn't recall much beyond his long stretches of describing nature there... but the point is: maybe going off-grid can be relevant? changes also can also occur in "small bubbles of reality" and their impact can be extensive or narrow, still, they are a change..?
  - soco 2y ago
    ...and then he came back and spread his contributions to the society, notable figures inclusive. Had he stayed in that cabin and only wrote in his diary, we'd had no idea a Thoreau ever lived. So this was not an example.
AlienRobot 2y ago
I've always found interesting that we've grown up hearing don't install random programs from the internet/don't access random websites. Then you go use linux and everyone copy-pastes commands other people wrote straight into the terminal.
- singpolyma3 2y ago
  Don't access random websites? Sounds like a very small internet.
  - AlienRobot 2y ago
    It does feel like that sometimes doesn't it.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  > Then you go use linux and everyone copy-pastes commands other people wrote straight into the terminal. This is exactly the same bias in action. When I started using Linux nobody was doing that, and even if somebody gave you a script, its actions were verifiable by reading the relevant man pages. I still don't run install.sh files I didn't read or at least skimmed, for example.
  - roblabla 2y ago
    Do you also audit the sources of the programs installed by that install.sh? Do you make sure the binaries and sources match? If not, why? What makes the shell script so special that it must be audited with care, but the binaries are fine?
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      I do not use any "install.sh" that installs freestanding binaries. All of the ones I use just sets up repositories, and I make sure that the repositories are the correct/legit ones. If I have to install a freestanding binary, I compile it from source and install. Since all the repositories are signed there must be a big breach to compromise these packages since the infrastructure is generally distributed. Different servers, keys, etc. > What makes the shell script so special that it must be audited with care... Because I need to know what changes I'm incorporating into my system(s), and plan accordingly, or prevent any change which is not in line with my system administration principles. > ...but the binaries are fine? They are not fine, but they are signed at multiple levels and checksummed, so they are a lower risk.
datavirtue 2y ago
Business moves at the speed of trust.
- jrexilius 2y ago
  That is a very good summary. I'm stealing that line..
- m463 2y ago
  Reading "the rational optimist" I remember reading that when trading partners trust each other, trade is unlimited. It is such a shame. It is a shame that phones are intrusive, smart tvs are intrusive, commercial home automation systems ... etc
- veunes 2y ago
  Trust is an indispensable element of successful business strategy. But not all businesses are using this strategy till the end. I mean you can gain trust and sometimes use that trust to make people believe you in any cases.
jrexilius 2y ago
Having worked in many low-trust countries, I very much agree with that assertion. And seeing the effects of the trust-decay in our own, and the trajectory it sets, reinforces that view.

by alvah 2y ago

soco 2y ago

"I have read suggestions that this was a major contributor to the growth of the Western economies, relative to other low-trust societies." I'm not sure I follow, what are other low trust societies? Otherwise I'm with you here - living in a cabin in the woods survivalist-mode does nothing to progress a society.

dbspin 2y ago
This pew research article from 2008 (prior to the decline of trust in the West) illustrates some examples and the knock on or related differences between low and high trust societies - https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/04/15/where-trust-is...
_heimdall 2y ago
> living in a cabin in the woods survivalist-mode does nothing to progress a society. Not everyone's goal is to progress a society though. If one's goal is to live a quiet life and do what makes them happy, what's wrong with living in a cabin in the woods? That would only be a fundamental problem if everyone owes something to society. That's a much different conversation though, whether everyone is born into a debt that must be paid back to society.
- tsukikage 2y ago
  If handiwork and subsistence farming are not what makes you happy, living in a cabin in the woods will not make you happy, because when you cannot outsource them to the rest of society, nearly all your time will be spent doing those things in order to survive. Even once these basics are sorted, you will only live happily outside society as long as you are lucky enough to stay healthy.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    If handiwork and producing or finding your own food is what makes you happy, then why does it matter whether you are outsourcing to society? The second sounds like a separate goal unto itself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, or with having multiple goals, but if you start by saying doing X makes you happy then it doesn't really make sense to say doing X won't actually make you happy because you aren't doing Y.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      People don't have the physical or mental ability to live alone. Their version of "alone" is a world where there are institutions that exist to protect their property, guarantee their transactions, and where they are supplied with a massive amount of high-quality manufactured goods. Paying for them doesn't make you somehow independent of society, it's the nature of society. You're trading bits of paper with government promises printed on them.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        There's a big difference in living alone versus living in a big city though. Living in a cabin in the woods, as the example here, doesn't mean alone and cut off from everyone else. It likely just means a quieter, more self sufficient life. Presumably if one is actually living alone in the woods they wouldn't be dependent on the larger societal systems like money, security, manufactured goods, etc. How would the get the money to start with without having a job that interacts with the outside world?
goda90 2y ago
Societies with lots of corruption, adulteration, theft, forgery, counterfeit, etc that goes under-punished. If you are frequently burned by your transactions and interactions with business, government, etc you're going to have low trust.
- HarryHirsch 2y ago
  There's a wrinkle to that - here's a vidio from the Indian trading standards authority to detect adulterated salt: https://youtu.be/x3CWvI_AWkU https://youtu.be/x3CWvI_AWkU That's the government actually doing its job for once, but you can't check at home for data safeguarding.
PKop 2y ago
>what are other low trust societies Look at the graph here on the wallet study, should give you an idea. China is a good example. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712
whearyou 2y ago
For a case study, Israel vs eg Egypt. Though, for Israel that is changing for the worse - less trust in the government and each other.
- notjoemama 2y ago
  They're having the same problems with political extremism as the US. To be clear, this is both that political figures are leaning towards the extreme ends of their ideologies, as well as a culture of dogma and isolation that pushes them and their citizens towards extremes.
  - bishbosh 2y ago
    >To be clear, this is both that political figures are leaning towards the extreme ends of their ideologies Meaning you believe Biden leans towards the extreme left?
rolph 2y ago
i live in a cabin in the woods, we have different lifestyles too. im very technical, my nieghbour 'grizzly annie' is the opposite, but we trade back n forth.
luqtas 2y ago
Henry David Thoreau lived in a cabin for 2 years & that probably had societal impact... string from Wiki: "Thoreau's philosophy of civil disobedience later influenced the political thoughts and actions of notable figures such as Leo Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr."
- magarnicle 2y ago
  From what I remember, his reasons for living in the cabin are only explained at the end of the book. I wonder if people forget or are unaware of his intentions and just remember the 'dropping out of society' part.
  - luqtas 2y ago
    my memory doesn't recall much beyond his long stretches of describing nature there... but the point is: maybe going off-grid can be relevant? changes also can also occur in "small bubbles of reality" and their impact can be extensive or narrow, still, they are a change..?
- soco 2y ago
  ...and then he came back and spread his contributions to the society, notable figures inclusive. Had he stayed in that cabin and only wrote in his diary, we'd had no idea a Thoreau ever lived. So this was not an example.

AlienRobot 2y ago

I've always found interesting that we've grown up hearing don't install random programs from the internet/don't access random websites. Then you go use linux and everyone copy-pastes commands other people wrote straight into the terminal.

singpolyma3 2y ago
Don't access random websites? Sounds like a very small internet.
- AlienRobot 2y ago
  It does feel like that sometimes doesn't it.
bayindirh 2y ago
> Then you go use linux and everyone copy-pastes commands other people wrote straight into the terminal. This is exactly the same bias in action. When I started using Linux nobody was doing that, and even if somebody gave you a script, its actions were verifiable by reading the relevant man pages. I still don't run install.sh files I didn't read or at least skimmed, for example.
- roblabla 2y ago
  Do you also audit the sources of the programs installed by that install.sh? Do you make sure the binaries and sources match? If not, why? What makes the shell script so special that it must be audited with care, but the binaries are fine?
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    I do not use any "install.sh" that installs freestanding binaries. All of the ones I use just sets up repositories, and I make sure that the repositories are the correct/legit ones. If I have to install a freestanding binary, I compile it from source and install. Since all the repositories are signed there must be a big breach to compromise these packages since the infrastructure is generally distributed. Different servers, keys, etc. > What makes the shell script so special that it must be audited with care... Because I need to know what changes I'm incorporating into my system(s), and plan accordingly, or prevent any change which is not in line with my system administration principles. > ...but the binaries are fine? They are not fine, but they are signed at multiple levels and checksummed, so they are a lower risk.

datavirtue 2y ago

Business moves at the speed of trust.

jrexilius 2y ago
That is a very good summary. I'm stealing that line..
m463 2y ago
Reading "the rational optimist" I remember reading that when trading partners trust each other, trade is unlimited. It is such a shame. It is a shame that phones are intrusive, smart tvs are intrusive, commercial home automation systems ... etc
veunes 2y ago
Trust is an indispensable element of successful business strategy. But not all businesses are using this strategy till the end. I mean you can gain trust and sometimes use that trust to make people believe you in any cases.

jrexilius 2y ago

Having worked in many low-trust countries, I very much agree with that assertion. And seeing the effects of the trust-decay in our own, and the trajectory it sets, reinforces that view.