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> the (arguably) unequal focus only Israel's human rights record relative to other countries Two thoughts on this: Firstly, every time a country is getting cr

> the (arguably) unequal focus only Israel's human rights record relative to other countries Two thoughts on this: Firstly, every time a country is getting criticized for it's human rights abuses it, like clockwork, raises the spectre of being "unjustly singled out" about it's human rights abuses. To be clear, I would very much like every country on earth that engages in human rights abuses prosecuted for it, including mine, and specifically every U.S. President that's still currently alive since they are ALL guilty of them in varying degrees. And that way, we can't be accused of biases. Secondly, I believe it's fair, even if we are biased against Israel in this way, to be biased since it has the rather unique position of being a state that exists solely because of and by the authority of the West. It is a colonialist project and has been from it's inception and I don't think you can take this situation on fully without acknowledging that fact. Debating whether it should or shouldn't exist is rather moot at this point because it does, and tons of people live there who have committed no crime and done no wrong. That said, it is at the end all, an ethno-nationalist state built on a foundation of war crimes too numerous to count, that is currently incrementing as they barrage an utterly impotent neighbor to death, and it is doing so with the enthusiastic encouragement of FAR, FAR too many colonial powers. Maybe that's enough to say, ethically, that all of it's citizens should be displaced, maybe not. I do not know the solution. My point is that Israel's existence, in entirety, is violence perpetrated against every country it borders with, it wars with, and who's land it sits upon. That cannot be ignored.

pessimizer 2y ago
> Firstly, every time a country is getting criticized for it's human rights abuses it, like clockwork, raises the spectre of being "unjustly singled out" about it's human rights abuses. My favorite one of these is when South Africa would say that the only reason people were angry about Apartheid was their obvious "anti-Boer prejudice." Which sounds stupid, until you remember that the British rounded up Boers and put them into concentration camps. It's still stupid, but if you accept the premise that being abused gives you the right to abuse, it's a claim as legitimate as any other of that type. > My point is that Israel's existence, in entirety, is violence perpetrated against every country it borders with, it wars with, and who's land it sits upon. They could have just torn down the walls, and still can. Israelis can call the resulting country Israel, and Palestinians can call it Palestine. It only requires both groups to give up any dreams of theocracy. What made the PLO and Arafat so distasteful to Israeli power players was the fact that they were secular, reasonable, and making moral arguments, not theological ones. People whose goal was to wipe out the Palestinians vastly preferred Hamas.
bawolff 2y ago
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nsguy 2y ago
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- refulgentis 2y ago
  > How much condemnation from the UN has China received for what it's doing to the Uyghurs? Tons? https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=united+nations+uyghur+condemns https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=united+nations+uyghur+condemn... Apologies for the LMGTFY, but there needs to be a ratcheting up of gently-administered teasing of people when they share tired, easily checkable, fallacious, talking points like this. Frankly, to me personally, it's stomach-churning, especially when it's reserved for "my racism justifying human rights violations is noble self-defense, unlike theirs." > Do the Uyghurs launch rockets on Beijing? Did they blow up busses and restaurants in Beijing? Yes. Is Beijing justified because they did?
  - nsguy 2y ago
    The Uyghurs did not launch rockets on Beijing. As far as I can tell they did not blow up any buses or restaurants in Beijing either. To contrast suicide bombings in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem were a weekly affair during the early 2000's. And Palestinians fires 10's of thousands of rockets into Israeli cities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_... Ofcourse China is not justified in what they're doing to the Uyghurs. Israel also did not respond to the significantly larger attacks on its civilian population like China. You've decided that Israel is engaged in racist human rights violation and not self-defense. I think that's the crux of the issue. I think Israel is engaging in self defense and during the course of the self-defense inevitably human rights are violated. This is true on a personal level and it's true on the level of a country. We violate the human rights of criminals we put in prison. If you're killing someone else to defend yourself as an individual you are "violating their human rights". The world largely stands by as China genocides the Uyghurs. No campus encampments. No boycotts. No heated HN discussions. 10 million people effectively being wiped out.
- echaozh 2y ago
  So did Beijing bomb the Uyghurs? Do you see Uyghurs anywhere cry for kins killed by bombs or houses destroyed? How can you compare China with Israel? Also, sure Uyghurs killed Hans in riots, and they sure have conducted terrorist attacks in China.

pessimizer 2y ago

> Firstly, every time a country is getting criticized for it's human rights abuses it, like clockwork, raises the spectre of being "unjustly singled out" about it's human rights abuses. My favorite one of these is when South Africa would say that the only reason people were angry about Apartheid was their obvious "anti-Boer prejudice." Which sounds stupid, until you remember that the British rounded up Boers and put them into concentration camps. It's still stupid, but if you accept the premise that being abused gives you the right to abuse, it's a claim as legitimate as any other of that type. > My point is that Israel's existence, in entirety, is violence perpetrated against every country it borders with, it wars with, and who's land it sits upon. They could have just torn down the walls, and still can. Israelis can call the resulting country Israel, and Palestinians can call it Palestine. It only requires both groups to give up any dreams of theocracy. What made the PLO and Arafat so distasteful to Israeli power players was the fact that they were secular, reasonable, and making moral arguments, not theological ones. People whose goal was to wipe out the Palestinians vastly preferred Hamas.

bawolff 2y ago

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nsguy 2y ago

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refulgentis 2y ago
> How much condemnation from the UN has China received for what it's doing to the Uyghurs? Tons? https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=united+nations+uyghur+condemns https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=united+nations+uyghur+condemn... Apologies for the LMGTFY, but there needs to be a ratcheting up of gently-administered teasing of people when they share tired, easily checkable, fallacious, talking points like this. Frankly, to me personally, it's stomach-churning, especially when it's reserved for "my racism justifying human rights violations is noble self-defense, unlike theirs." > Do the Uyghurs launch rockets on Beijing? Did they blow up busses and restaurants in Beijing? Yes. Is Beijing justified because they did?
- nsguy 2y ago
  The Uyghurs did not launch rockets on Beijing. As far as I can tell they did not blow up any buses or restaurants in Beijing either. To contrast suicide bombings in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem were a weekly affair during the early 2000's. And Palestinians fires 10's of thousands of rockets into Israeli cities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_... Ofcourse China is not justified in what they're doing to the Uyghurs. Israel also did not respond to the significantly larger attacks on its civilian population like China. You've decided that Israel is engaged in racist human rights violation and not self-defense. I think that's the crux of the issue. I think Israel is engaging in self defense and during the course of the self-defense inevitably human rights are violated. This is true on a personal level and it's true on the level of a country. We violate the human rights of criminals we put in prison. If you're killing someone else to defend yourself as an individual you are "violating their human rights". The world largely stands by as China genocides the Uyghurs. No campus encampments. No boycotts. No heated HN discussions. 10 million people effectively being wiped out.
echaozh 2y ago
So did Beijing bomb the Uyghurs? Do you see Uyghurs anywhere cry for kins killed by bombs or houses destroyed? How can you compare China with Israel? Also, sure Uyghurs killed Hans in riots, and they sure have conducted terrorist attacks in China.