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> But in general what strategy do you need? Take over, destroy the military infra and prevent smuggling. That's all that is needed. Gaza is thousand years back,

> But in general what strategy do you need? Take over, destroy the military infra and prevent smuggling. That's all that is needed. Gaza is thousand years back, it will never recover. It is not a threat anymore in any meaningful way. Impressively amoral post, but this is insanity. (1) Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is not self-sufficient. (2) There's something monstrous about keeping 2M people herded up in a closed pen. Whether or not those people are "threats" shall remain to be seen, but Israel is going to lose (is, already, losing) the hearts and minds of everybody on the planet under age 40 -- and you're going to see what being a real pariah state feels like. Israel won't survive as a state very long after that; it is a hard thing, to be despised. And yet, if it comes to that point, it will be very richly deserved. What you need is a strategy which improves the lives of Gazans -- not one that bombs their homes to rubble and sets them back a thousand years. You need to address their very real grievance. Without this, you're both sunk. Gonna end in tears, like I said.

Levitz 2y ago
>Whether or not those people are "threats" shall remain to be seen, but Israel is going to lose (is, already, losing) the hearts and minds of everybody on the planet under age 40 At this point, I think these are not the real power dynamics. I used to think Israel needed western support to exist. I don't do anymore. Now I believe that Israel needs any support, and they are perfectly fine with the idea of allying with Russia, China or whoever seems reliable enough and willing to put up with their stuff. Which means that Israel is not dependent on the west, more specifically, the US. The US is reliant on Israel for presence in the middle east. Which would explain why they seem to do whatever they want, ignoring warnings from the US. The warnings aren't real, Israel is going to commit unspeakable abuses on a population either way, so might as well have them on our side. I believe that to be the current state of affairs.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  Take my upvotes. Take them! Guidelines schmidelines! (OK, I only got one).
  - DANmode 2y ago
    Take this unsubstantive garbage back to reddit, please.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      Hello friend. I've been on HN for a while. I contribute to the discussions here and contribute with submissions (you can check my submissions and comments pages through my profile). I have earned my right to crack a joke once in a while. Please consider not shooting from the hip and respecting other users' comments here, yourself.
      - DANmode 2y ago
        It was actually the age of your account that led me to "shoot from the hip". There's no "right" to disrupt the conversation. I feel bad about doing it here, now. But, I hate having my reading disrupted by that "vibe". If you're a friend, please follow the guidelines.
- joquarky 2y ago
  > The US is reliant on Israel for presence in the middle east. Given rapid adoption of alternative energy, how much effort will the US continue to invest in having a presence there?
- throw310822 2y ago
  I have no doubts that Israel is willing to search for support anywhere it can find it. Yet, this doesn't mean that they don't need the western one to keep with their standards of living, political standing in the west, and self-identification as a modern western country. A serious political condemnation and sanctions would be enough to steer Israel towards a different course- provided that the radicalisation of society hasn't already reached a point of no return. On the other hand, the US certainly doesn't need an ally that creates far more problems than it resolves. Their solid, oil-rich ally in the region is Saudi Arabia. The power dynamic between Israel and the US is not that of a client-state and its powerful protector or even one between allies; it resembles more that of a narcissistic, abusive lover towards their submissive partner. This is why we have been seeing the entire US government utterly humiliating itself for the past few months, finding pathetic excuses to pretend they haven't been slapped in the face every single day, while reiterating their unconditional love and swearing that their partner never did anything wrong. Really, there is no rational (in the sense of geo-political or strategic) explanation for this. It's a psychological subjugation.
YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
Is it? Pragmatically speaking, who is going to make it end in tears? Nobody in the region really wants a war with Israel: the Arab countries got their fill of it and Iran sure doesn't want to get into an actual war. And if anyone gets any big ideas, there's always Uncle Sam (and Uncle Sam's Western allies; who, btw, include Turkey). I understand that people want to see things put right, but we must understand what world we live in and how the cards are dealt. There are three great powers, the US, China and Russia, and Israel has a um special relation with one of them, whereas none of its enemies do. The Arab countries want to make peace and do business, Iran might like to be a regional power but has no friends in the region and the Palestinians have nothing to negotiate with and nobody to stand up for them; nobody with any clout, that is. There is nothing and nobody that can make it all end in tears for Israel. You and others misunderstand the geopolitical situation in the Middle East: Israel can do whatever the fuck it pleases, and it does. To be perfectly clear, it is a shitty situation, but there is no obvious way out of it.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  > There are three great powers, the US, China and Russia, and Israel has a um special relation with one of them, whereas none of its enemies do. Things keep going the way they're going, and that special relationship has got twenty years left on the clock, max. I don't think that American support should be taken for granted -- and it's not like Israel is cozying up to the Russians or Chinese. They may well end up like South Africa, with investment bans, arms embargoes, sanctions, no participation in international cultural events, etc. That's a very hard fate for a nation. The white South Africans of those days weren't able to hold out for very long.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    I disagree. It is very obvious, as Levitz points out above, that Israel can just cozy up to the Chinese or the Russians if Uncle Sam washes its hands of it, China and Russia who would jump at the chance to gain a foothold in the Middle East, right next door to all those industrial juice springs. If I may. But even if that were not the case 20 years is plenty of time to cleanse Gaza, and the West Bank with it, of every last Palestinian. I'd say at the current rate it would take hardly a couple years. Edit: to be fair, I don't know how to compare SA and Israel. Maybe you have a point, but I don't think it's that simple to impose any kind of, essentially, sanctions to Israel as long as Uncle Sam's got its back. That special relation is a pretty big trump card there. And, btw, we're still at a Democratic president. Can you imagine the Republicans letting Israel suffer arms bans and trade embargoes?
myth_drannon 2y ago
[flagged]
- xenospn 2y ago
  Your point about the Eurovision is something I also am very curious about. I don’t understand how that’s possible, from TikTok and Instagram to Reddit and HN, All I see are mass protests and hate comments against Israel. So how come tens of millions overwhelmingly voted for Israel, even in Scandinavia? Sweden gave them 12 points!
- no_exit 2y ago
  > So yes, antisemites and the mentally ill are loud on the streets and on the university campuses but they haven't won the hearts and the minds of people, and rightfully so. Is that right? > The survey found that 61% of the population opposes Israel's military action in the sealed-off Palestinian territory. > Public support in Germany for Israel's military operations has dropped significantly, the survey shows. > In November, shortly after the October 7 attacks, 62% favoured the Israeli military actions in Gaza, compared to 33% in the most recent survey, indicating a recent shift in public opinion almost eight months into the conflict. https://www.yahoo.com/news/survey-majority-germans-oppose-israels-053215857.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/survey-majority-germans-oppose-is...
raxxorraxor 2y ago
Your prediction isn't substantial. Israel will never win a popularity contest, but that is irrelevant. It also isn't true that all young people are firmly on one side of this issue, in fact they are probably a minority, even if they can be pretty loud. Strong opinions and little information often comes in a package. Israel exists because Jews were despised. They did not have support when the country was founded and got weapons on the black market. Today their security situation is a lot more stable. There are western firms/nations trading with Russia today, money always beats popularity, geostrategic interest beats popularity, pretty much anything beats unsolicited opinions from college students on Israel. In fact I believe support for Gaza will need a lot more political capital in the future and the countries supporting them actively will try to withdraw from this conflict. The few Gazans that sold products on the world market will have their existence evaporated, since they had to trade through Israel. Those that worked in Israel probably will not return for a very long time. People pointing their fingers at Israel often simply lack perspective.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

Levitz 2y ago

>Whether or not those people are "threats" shall remain to be seen, but Israel is going to lose (is, already, losing) the hearts and minds of everybody on the planet under age 40 At this point, I think these are not the real power dynamics. I used to think Israel needed western support to exist. I don't do anymore. Now I believe that Israel needs any support, and they are perfectly fine with the idea of allying with Russia, China or whoever seems reliable enough and willing to put up with their stuff. Which means that Israel is not dependent on the west, more specifically, the US. The US is reliant on Israel for presence in the middle east. Which would explain why they seem to do whatever they want, ignoring warnings from the US. The warnings aren't real, Israel is going to commit unspeakable abuses on a population either way, so might as well have them on our side. I believe that to be the current state of affairs.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
Take my upvotes. Take them! Guidelines schmidelines! (OK, I only got one).
- DANmode 2y ago
  Take this unsubstantive garbage back to reddit, please.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    Hello friend. I've been on HN for a while. I contribute to the discussions here and contribute with submissions (you can check my submissions and comments pages through my profile). I have earned my right to crack a joke once in a while. Please consider not shooting from the hip and respecting other users' comments here, yourself.
    - DANmode 2y ago
      It was actually the age of your account that led me to "shoot from the hip". There's no "right" to disrupt the conversation. I feel bad about doing it here, now. But, I hate having my reading disrupted by that "vibe". If you're a friend, please follow the guidelines.
joquarky 2y ago
> The US is reliant on Israel for presence in the middle east. Given rapid adoption of alternative energy, how much effort will the US continue to invest in having a presence there?
throw310822 2y ago
I have no doubts that Israel is willing to search for support anywhere it can find it. Yet, this doesn't mean that they don't need the western one to keep with their standards of living, political standing in the west, and self-identification as a modern western country. A serious political condemnation and sanctions would be enough to steer Israel towards a different course- provided that the radicalisation of society hasn't already reached a point of no return. On the other hand, the US certainly doesn't need an ally that creates far more problems than it resolves. Their solid, oil-rich ally in the region is Saudi Arabia. The power dynamic between Israel and the US is not that of a client-state and its powerful protector or even one between allies; it resembles more that of a narcissistic, abusive lover towards their submissive partner. This is why we have been seeing the entire US government utterly humiliating itself for the past few months, finding pathetic excuses to pretend they haven't been slapped in the face every single day, while reiterating their unconditional love and swearing that their partner never did anything wrong. Really, there is no rational (in the sense of geo-political or strategic) explanation for this. It's a psychological subjugation.

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago

Is it? Pragmatically speaking, who is going to make it end in tears? Nobody in the region really wants a war with Israel: the Arab countries got their fill of it and Iran sure doesn't want to get into an actual war. And if anyone gets any big ideas, there's always Uncle Sam (and Uncle Sam's Western allies; who, btw, include Turkey). I understand that people want to see things put right, but we must understand what world we live in and how the cards are dealt. There are three great powers, the US, China and Russia, and Israel has a um special relation with one of them, whereas none of its enemies do. The Arab countries want to make peace and do business, Iran might like to be a regional power but has no friends in the region and the Palestinians have nothing to negotiate with and nobody to stand up for them; nobody with any clout, that is. There is nothing and nobody that can make it all end in tears for Israel. You and others misunderstand the geopolitical situation in the Middle East: Israel can do whatever the fuck it pleases, and it does. To be perfectly clear, it is a shitty situation, but there is no obvious way out of it.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
> There are three great powers, the US, China and Russia, and Israel has a um special relation with one of them, whereas none of its enemies do. Things keep going the way they're going, and that special relationship has got twenty years left on the clock, max. I don't think that American support should be taken for granted -- and it's not like Israel is cozying up to the Russians or Chinese. They may well end up like South Africa, with investment bans, arms embargoes, sanctions, no participation in international cultural events, etc. That's a very hard fate for a nation. The white South Africans of those days weren't able to hold out for very long.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  I disagree. It is very obvious, as Levitz points out above, that Israel can just cozy up to the Chinese or the Russians if Uncle Sam washes its hands of it, China and Russia who would jump at the chance to gain a foothold in the Middle East, right next door to all those industrial juice springs. If I may. But even if that were not the case 20 years is plenty of time to cleanse Gaza, and the West Bank with it, of every last Palestinian. I'd say at the current rate it would take hardly a couple years. Edit: to be fair, I don't know how to compare SA and Israel. Maybe you have a point, but I don't think it's that simple to impose any kind of, essentially, sanctions to Israel as long as Uncle Sam's got its back. That special relation is a pretty big trump card there. And, btw, we're still at a Democratic president. Can you imagine the Republicans letting Israel suffer arms bans and trade embargoes?

myth_drannon 2y ago

[flagged]

xenospn 2y ago
Your point about the Eurovision is something I also am very curious about. I don’t understand how that’s possible, from TikTok and Instagram to Reddit and HN, All I see are mass protests and hate comments against Israel. So how come tens of millions overwhelmingly voted for Israel, even in Scandinavia? Sweden gave them 12 points!
no_exit 2y ago
> So yes, antisemites and the mentally ill are loud on the streets and on the university campuses but they haven't won the hearts and the minds of people, and rightfully so. Is that right? > The survey found that 61% of the population opposes Israel's military action in the sealed-off Palestinian territory. > Public support in Germany for Israel's military operations has dropped significantly, the survey shows. > In November, shortly after the October 7 attacks, 62% favoured the Israeli military actions in Gaza, compared to 33% in the most recent survey, indicating a recent shift in public opinion almost eight months into the conflict. https://www.yahoo.com/news/survey-majority-germans-oppose-israels-053215857.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/survey-majority-germans-oppose-is...

raxxorraxor 2y ago

Your prediction isn't substantial. Israel will never win a popularity contest, but that is irrelevant. It also isn't true that all young people are firmly on one side of this issue, in fact they are probably a minority, even if they can be pretty loud. Strong opinions and little information often comes in a package. Israel exists because Jews were despised. They did not have support when the country was founded and got weapons on the black market. Today their security situation is a lot more stable. There are western firms/nations trading with Russia today, money always beats popularity, geostrategic interest beats popularity, pretty much anything beats unsolicited opinions from college students on Israel. In fact I believe support for Gaza will need a lot more political capital in the future and the countries supporting them actively will try to withdraw from this conflict. The few Gazans that sold products on the world market will have their existence evaporated, since they had to trade through Israel. Those that worked in Israel probably will not return for a very long time. People pointing their fingers at Israel often simply lack perspective.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]