8 ms·

It's a very interesting thing, it demonstrates something uncomfortable & scary to me as a goy Zionist, who hangs out in a private, predominantly Jewish, space.

It's a very interesting thing, it demonstrates something uncomfortable & scary to me as a goy Zionist, who hangs out in a private, predominantly Jewish, space. Note the biggest word in the cloud: UNRWA. All my confirmation bias was in one direction in October. The oddly dissonant and desperate messaging you'd see made things extremely difficult to maintain that, like, you have to be of a very specific mindset to see message after message about the evil UN and not say, "uh, did we go off the rails somewhere?" (n.b. this was in a lefty Jewish space, broadly denigrating governmental institutions isn't a usual virtue signal) Going back to the beginning, there's an uncomfortable willingness/ignorance of Overton window widening, in a way that reduces sympathy rather than engenders it, and all of a sudden, otherwise kind people are engaging in rank racism*, glorification of destruction, and extreme conspiracies**. * lots of "no such thing as innocent Palestineans", "Palestineans love redacted", when questioned, turns into "it's not racist if they're not a race, and they aren't because bla bla bla" ** Day after day after day of the bailey, "World Central Kitchen was trying to smuggle terrorists", coupled to the motte "Jose Andres held a barbecue buffet! Lol!"

sixQuarks 2y ago
This is an enlightening comment. Thanks for sharing
myth_drannon 2y ago
* Assuming the comments came from Israelis/Jews. All the left and right-wing channels are infiltrated with Iranian agents(plenty of news on that topic in Haaretz/Walla). They are causing rift and radicalization in society. That's a solvable tech problem to shut it down. Unfortunately, it's not a priority on a state level because everyone is doing it.
- cess11 2y ago
  Really? Closest I've seen would be campaigns like this, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-02-04/ty-article/.premium/israeli-army-its-admits-staff-was-behind-graphic-gaza-telegram-channel/0000018d-70b4-dd6e-a98d-f4b6a9c00000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-0... . Then there's the stuff by IDF soldiers on TikTok, and the stuff settlers put out. I have the impression that the iranians don't need to do stuff like that.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  The cure for that is worse than the disease. And I think foreign agents manipulating public opinion abroad are vastly overestimated. Propaganda is still very prevalent and the target group is rarely someone other than the domestic population, even in democracies.
jolj 2y ago
[flagged]
bawolff 2y ago
> like, you have to be of a very specific mindset to see message after message about the evil UN and not say, "uh, did we go off the rails somewhere?" I think saying "evil" anything is wrong. But the UN is still a body made up of people, and like everything has its flaws. Its done some things that have turned out great and truly made the world a better place. Its done other things that haven't worked out so well. I certainly don't think it is above criticism.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  For the record, I agree wholeheartedly. It's hard to word these things. I hope it's clear the meaning is short of "The UN/UNWRA is above all criticism", happy to explicate at length if it isn't (I wouldn't be surprised, at all, anything I write on this looks like an unnecessarily mousey person's verbal diarrhea to me :) )
  - bawolff 2y ago
    That's fair, i maybe overinterpreted. I can understand why Israelis might be suspicious of the UN. The relationship between UN and Israel seems kind of fraught in a way that isn't true of pretty much any other country. The not allowing israel to fully vote until 2010 (edit: 2014), the (arguably) unequal focus only Israel's human rights record relative to other countries, and the whole UNRWA being totally different with different rules than any other refugee group, all make israel a bit unique in its relationship to the UN. I could easily understand how someone from Israel might feel that the UN treats them differently from other countries and is perhaps biased against them.
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      +1, the thing that jumps to mind is how "U N Schmu En" dates back to the...50s? I was disappointed people were 'shocked' by Gvir tweeting it because it sounded new. I am no fan of Gvir, but again, goes back to what a complex mess there is. (source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Um-Shmum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Um-Shmum)
endtime 2y ago
[flagged]
- leereeves 2y ago
  > Israel left Gaza in 2005 But they maintained a land, air, and sea blockade of the region, controlling water, food, power, trade, and immigration. And the region remained under continuous threat of the Israeli military returning. That's not self governing.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - wolpoli 2y ago
    > But they maintained a land, air, and sea blockade of the region, controlling water, food, power, trade, and immigration. And the region remained under continuous threat of the Israeli military returning. That's not self governing. The key is that Gaza can be "self-governing" even with the above restrictions. What they lack is "sovereignty".
    - leereeves 2y ago
      There are various definitions and degrees of self-governing, to be sure. But any definition that doesn't include the right to import food and medical supplies without Israeli permission is just a lie.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  We're blessed with polls right before 10/7 re: "Support for Hamas." Roughly 40/60. I've seen other junk ones passed around. I don't think 10/7 or what we ended up with in Gaza was justified, a sweeping international majority agrees, and both Israel/Gaza will poll at "of course it was justified and why are people so evil as to not support us" You transmutated "I've never seen any jokes about WCK" to "the only thing I've ever seen is links about polls" to "linking to polls isn't bad.": sure, no one would say it is. so it comes across as an attempt to claim it is unreasonable to claim that worse things go on than linking to polls.** > has a vested interest in perpetuating the "refugee" status of millions of Palestinians who were born outside Israel I'm familiar with this argument: sure. If that's the case, let's get rid of the UN. We'll have to find some way to get not-terrorists governing Gaza, i.e. providing for the people. There's two choices from there.* In my experience, one of them is consistently ruled out by people who spend time litigating the UN. And I strongly believe that is where the breaking point in international support is. * if you exclude "kick the can down the road" and "the Palestineans without the guns should seize power from the guys with the guns, otherwise they're complicit" ** It's just a feeling, but one informed by 1000 conversations I've had: if the strawman about poll links means "yeah, I've seen racism, but justified and rational, because the polls say a majority of Them" -- I think that's exactly the class of behavior that leads me to be a proud Zionist, it's dangerous to proscribe beliefs to a group, based on location of their housing, religion, skin color, anything. It justifies some very ugly things.
StockHuman 2y ago
Out of idle curiosity, how did you arrive at Zionism from a non-jewish and leftist background? That has to be one of the rarest identities to simultaneously associate with.
- anoncareer0212 2y ago
  Thank you for asking, it's sublime to see that you're unique in others eyes, very hard to see yourself Let me really blow your mind: also, raised very conservative Catholic, didn't do Confirmation, then was Muslim for about 6 years It's all a long story. Catholic, LGBTQ stuff rubbed me the wrong way and in some of the deepest grace I've seen, my religious educator encourage it. Muslim, I was essentially on my own once I turned 15 (abusive and absentee parents) and transferred from Catholic school to public school (save $$), and the most welcoming people were foreign, the rest had been in the same classes for a decade. They didn't prostelyize, it was fun going there on Friday nights to play dodge ball, it was little incremental work to show up earlier and it felt good. Zionist...I swear to God there wasn't a single negative word about Jews or Israel or other religions at either of the 2 mosques I went to. There was a quiet understanding that Palestinians were hurt and that it was a bit melodramatic at times, given they had structural issues on their own side. In general, I'm an inveterate both sides er, and I'm guessing knowing a lot of avowed older Zionist as well as Muslims makes me feel secure in "ugh there's some extremists / ignorant people in group X" rather than "wow group X is inherently evil" And now you're making me think maybe the parents have more to do with it than I realize. It took a lot to finally say...wait, no...what they're doing is wrong and I don't owe them anything. As long as I'm thinking things out and rational, I'm doing my best. Adds to the comfort with tendatiousness/both sides and confidence in holding to it. (Ran out of posts on main, so this is from my old backup when I was gainfully employed at FAANG)
  - StockHuman 2y ago
    Ah! You’re your own Jerusalem; ever in the middle. :) That does make more sense: unless I read you wrong, leftism wasn’t a real sway here - and that’s easier to square away. Leftist Zionism is (as far as I can tell), almost only advanced by Jews. Neat, though I’m perhaps confused as to how you might even arrive at Zionism (a rather polar position to take).
616c 2y ago
It's amusing you can self identify this way without much hesitation. My personal experience with colleagues and family on both sides of the regional, religious, lijguistic, and cultural debate is that if you talked about being a non-Muslim supporter of political Islamists or up to including Hamas or similar groups, so anywhere in that continuum inclusive, few in Western or Israeli media will hesistate in labelling you in a way common with these talking points: a terrorist. So good luck to you, but I'm not surprised you'd stay private But my anecdata (or some may call life experience) tell me you'd be fine and fare well where a similarly extreme position on the opposite end of the spectrum would cost you a lot personally and professionally. I wish we all reflected in the West or in tje region or conflict area, well, why is that? For the record since I inevitably get routinely called an anti-Semite anyway: I think Hamas and groups like them are vile, but many in the region opposing them don't take the high road by comparison either. Im nkt sure if its recent or monitoring that become easier and more economical, but that means their opponents with this crap and other tactics have really screwed up. This HN post further supports my cynicism and disappointment.

sixQuarks 2y ago

This is an enlightening comment. Thanks for sharing

myth_drannon 2y ago

* Assuming the comments came from Israelis/Jews. All the left and right-wing channels are infiltrated with Iranian agents(plenty of news on that topic in Haaretz/Walla). They are causing rift and radicalization in society. That's a solvable tech problem to shut it down. Unfortunately, it's not a priority on a state level because everyone is doing it.

cess11 2y ago
Really? Closest I've seen would be campaigns like this, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-02-04/ty-article/.premium/israeli-army-its-admits-staff-was-behind-graphic-gaza-telegram-channel/0000018d-70b4-dd6e-a98d-f4b6a9c00000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-0... . Then there's the stuff by IDF soldiers on TikTok, and the stuff settlers put out. I have the impression that the iranians don't need to do stuff like that.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
The cure for that is worse than the disease. And I think foreign agents manipulating public opinion abroad are vastly overestimated. Propaganda is still very prevalent and the target group is rarely someone other than the domestic population, even in democracies.

jolj 2y ago

[flagged]

bawolff 2y ago

> like, you have to be of a very specific mindset to see message after message about the evil UN and not say, "uh, did we go off the rails somewhere?" I think saying "evil" anything is wrong. But the UN is still a body made up of people, and like everything has its flaws. Its done some things that have turned out great and truly made the world a better place. Its done other things that haven't worked out so well. I certainly don't think it is above criticism.

refulgentis 2y ago
For the record, I agree wholeheartedly. It's hard to word these things. I hope it's clear the meaning is short of "The UN/UNWRA is above all criticism", happy to explicate at length if it isn't (I wouldn't be surprised, at all, anything I write on this looks like an unnecessarily mousey person's verbal diarrhea to me :) )
- bawolff 2y ago
  That's fair, i maybe overinterpreted. I can understand why Israelis might be suspicious of the UN. The relationship between UN and Israel seems kind of fraught in a way that isn't true of pretty much any other country. The not allowing israel to fully vote until 2010 (edit: 2014), the (arguably) unequal focus only Israel's human rights record relative to other countries, and the whole UNRWA being totally different with different rules than any other refugee group, all make israel a bit unique in its relationship to the UN. I could easily understand how someone from Israel might feel that the UN treats them differently from other countries and is perhaps biased against them.
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    +1, the thing that jumps to mind is how "U N Schmu En" dates back to the...50s? I was disappointed people were 'shocked' by Gvir tweeting it because it sounded new. I am no fan of Gvir, but again, goes back to what a complex mess there is. (source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Um-Shmum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Um-Shmum)

endtime 2y ago

[flagged]

leereeves 2y ago
> Israel left Gaza in 2005 But they maintained a land, air, and sea blockade of the region, controlling water, food, power, trade, and immigration. And the region remained under continuous threat of the Israeli military returning. That's not self governing.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- wolpoli 2y ago
  > But they maintained a land, air, and sea blockade of the region, controlling water, food, power, trade, and immigration. And the region remained under continuous threat of the Israeli military returning. That's not self governing. The key is that Gaza can be "self-governing" even with the above restrictions. What they lack is "sovereignty".
  - leereeves 2y ago
    There are various definitions and degrees of self-governing, to be sure. But any definition that doesn't include the right to import food and medical supplies without Israeli permission is just a lie.
refulgentis 2y ago
We're blessed with polls right before 10/7 re: "Support for Hamas." Roughly 40/60. I've seen other junk ones passed around. I don't think 10/7 or what we ended up with in Gaza was justified, a sweeping international majority agrees, and both Israel/Gaza will poll at "of course it was justified and why are people so evil as to not support us" You transmutated "I've never seen any jokes about WCK" to "the only thing I've ever seen is links about polls" to "linking to polls isn't bad.": sure, no one would say it is. so it comes across as an attempt to claim it is unreasonable to claim that worse things go on than linking to polls.** > has a vested interest in perpetuating the "refugee" status of millions of Palestinians who were born outside Israel I'm familiar with this argument: sure. If that's the case, let's get rid of the UN. We'll have to find some way to get not-terrorists governing Gaza, i.e. providing for the people. There's two choices from there.* In my experience, one of them is consistently ruled out by people who spend time litigating the UN. And I strongly believe that is where the breaking point in international support is. * if you exclude "kick the can down the road" and "the Palestineans without the guns should seize power from the guys with the guns, otherwise they're complicit" ** It's just a feeling, but one informed by 1000 conversations I've had: if the strawman about poll links means "yeah, I've seen racism, but justified and rational, because the polls say a majority of Them" -- I think that's exactly the class of behavior that leads me to be a proud Zionist, it's dangerous to proscribe beliefs to a group, based on location of their housing, religion, skin color, anything. It justifies some very ugly things.

StockHuman 2y ago

Out of idle curiosity, how did you arrive at Zionism from a non-jewish and leftist background? That has to be one of the rarest identities to simultaneously associate with.

anoncareer0212 2y ago
Thank you for asking, it's sublime to see that you're unique in others eyes, very hard to see yourself Let me really blow your mind: also, raised very conservative Catholic, didn't do Confirmation, then was Muslim for about 6 years It's all a long story. Catholic, LGBTQ stuff rubbed me the wrong way and in some of the deepest grace I've seen, my religious educator encourage it. Muslim, I was essentially on my own once I turned 15 (abusive and absentee parents) and transferred from Catholic school to public school (save $$), and the most welcoming people were foreign, the rest had been in the same classes for a decade. They didn't prostelyize, it was fun going there on Friday nights to play dodge ball, it was little incremental work to show up earlier and it felt good. Zionist...I swear to God there wasn't a single negative word about Jews or Israel or other religions at either of the 2 mosques I went to. There was a quiet understanding that Palestinians were hurt and that it was a bit melodramatic at times, given they had structural issues on their own side. In general, I'm an inveterate both sides er, and I'm guessing knowing a lot of avowed older Zionist as well as Muslims makes me feel secure in "ugh there's some extremists / ignorant people in group X" rather than "wow group X is inherently evil" And now you're making me think maybe the parents have more to do with it than I realize. It took a lot to finally say...wait, no...what they're doing is wrong and I don't owe them anything. As long as I'm thinking things out and rational, I'm doing my best. Adds to the comfort with tendatiousness/both sides and confidence in holding to it. (Ran out of posts on main, so this is from my old backup when I was gainfully employed at FAANG)
- StockHuman 2y ago
  Ah! You’re your own Jerusalem; ever in the middle. :) That does make more sense: unless I read you wrong, leftism wasn’t a real sway here - and that’s easier to square away. Leftist Zionism is (as far as I can tell), almost only advanced by Jews. Neat, though I’m perhaps confused as to how you might even arrive at Zionism (a rather polar position to take).

616c 2y ago

It's amusing you can self identify this way without much hesitation. My personal experience with colleagues and family on both sides of the regional, religious, lijguistic, and cultural debate is that if you talked about being a non-Muslim supporter of political Islamists or up to including Hamas or similar groups, so anywhere in that continuum inclusive, few in Western or Israeli media will hesistate in labelling you in a way common with these talking points: a terrorist. So good luck to you, but I'm not surprised you'd stay private But my anecdata (or some may call life experience) tell me you'd be fine and fare well where a similarly extreme position on the opposite end of the spectrum would cost you a lot personally and professionally. I wish we all reflected in the West or in tje region or conflict area, well, why is that? For the record since I inevitably get routinely called an anti-Semite anyway: I think Hamas and groups like them are vile, but many in the region opposing them don't take the high road by comparison either. Im nkt sure if its recent or monitoring that become easier and more economical, but that means their opponents with this crap and other tactics have really screwed up. This HN post further supports my cynicism and disappointment.