18 ms·

Why would that be ironic. Apple wilfully is holding gaming back on OSX by ignoring Vulkan and having a pure shit opengl implementation.

bilbo0s 2y ago
You may have a good point with the opengl thing. But the number of games that run on Vulkan is so vanishingly small that we can't credibly say that not having a Vulkan driver holds Apple back on gaming. I'd bet any money that the number of games that work on Metal is wayyyy higher than the minuscule number of games that run on Vulkan. Which should tell you how few Vulkan games there are.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > But the number of games that run on Vulkan is so vanishingly small Really? 7 out of the 10 most popular games on Steam work fine if you have Vulkan 1.3 drivers: https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=playerCount https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=playerCount
  - dagmx 2y ago
    of the top 10, I count 3: Counter Strike 2 Dota 2 Stardew Valley How are you getting 7/10 unless you're also counting games that happen to run under Proton, which aren't native? And regardless, that's a really small sample size to extrapolate from, when it's easy to get a more extensive list that is around ~250 games total. https://www.vulkan.org/made-with-vulkan https://www.vulkan.org/made-with-vulkan https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Vulkan_games https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Vulkan_games Of which, a massive percentage are based on engines that have Metal support as well.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      I'm sorting by playercount, which seems to be corroberated here: https://steamcharts.com/top https://steamcharts.com/top I am counting Proton games because they very explicitly are supported by sufficient Vulkan coverage. In case you weren't paying attention that's kinda the only reason anyone cares about Apple Silicon getting Vulkan 1.3 coverage in the first place. > when it's easy to get a more extensive list that is around ~250 games total. You're right, when we push it out to 1000 titles it gets closer to 80% playable: https://www.protondb.com/dashboard https://www.protondb.com/dashboard > Of which, a massive percentage are based on engines that have Metal support as well. ...yeah, you keep telling yourself that. One day, they'll definitely flip the switch on MacOS support. Certainly.
      - dagmx 2y ago
        Okay, so you're counting non-native games when the discussion is AGAIN clearly about native games. If we're talking about translation layers, then it's irrelevant because Whisky/Crossover can run them as well. This is just you being completely disingenuous now and purposefully avoiding the actual point of the discussion.
        talldayo 2y ago
        This was never about native games. It would be very convenient if Proton didn't exist and native games were the only playable option, but in many cases Proton titles run better than native Windows. It's an equivalent, if not superior, experience. It would be a lot more disingenuous if the Steam Deck didn't exist and Linux gaming was a farce. But... it's not. And the only thing stopping Apple from enjoying the same spoils is a little bit of humility.
        rowanG077 2y ago
        Dxvk is notoriously bad on moltenvk. I have tried and have completely given up running it.
        tracker1 2y ago
        I think it's absolutely fair to count games that are able to run in Linux with Proton via DXVK + Vulcan. Since it's well established and relatively popular thanks to Valve's efforts with the Steam Deck and Proton. Given those efforts, if Apple/Mac had support for Vulkan, Valve would probably make it all just as available on Mac as they do on Linux for Proton.
        vilunov 2y ago
        Even with Vulkan support on macOS it would be harder for Valve to make many games accessible as they do on Linux – unlike Linux, macOS does not support running 32-bit binaries anymore.
        guipsp 2y ago
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  The amount of games that work with Vulkan may be very small, but at least they have a chance of working. The de facto standard API for games on computers, DirectX, will never receive a port. If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. I think Vulkan makes a lot of sense for macOS, actually; the Nintendo Switch, to which tons of games have been ported already, uses the ARM+Vulkan design and has a relatively weak GPU (but much weaker, as it's very old). It's not quite native, but a lot of supporting libraries that work on the Switch will also work on Mac. Everyone is talking about porting Windows games to Mac, but with the way things are developing, porting Switch games to Mac may actually make more sense, assuming Nintendo's promises for the upcoming Switch replacement are to be believed.
  - troupo 2y ago
    > If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. Metal is supported on iOS. You know, one of the largest gaming platforms in the world.
    - philistine 2y ago
      THE largest gaming platform in the world. Users, sales, number of games, hours played. I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        > I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one. Enjoyable gaming experiences?
      - amlib 2y ago
        And yet most popular games on phones (both ios and android) are complete shit full of predatory practices with appalling gameplay and simple graphics, which barely benefit from those fancy graphics API anyway and could be reworked within weeks to use any other API. I do know apple is trying to push for AAA games on iphone but so far its a small drip on a giant cesspool. If you want actual good games, be it indies, AA or AAA, you go for one of the three consoles, windows or steam deck/linux.

bilbo0s 2y ago

You may have a good point with the opengl thing. But the number of games that run on Vulkan is so vanishingly small that we can't credibly say that not having a Vulkan driver holds Apple back on gaming. I'd bet any money that the number of games that work on Metal is wayyyy higher than the minuscule number of games that run on Vulkan. Which should tell you how few Vulkan games there are.

talldayo 2y ago
> But the number of games that run on Vulkan is so vanishingly small Really? 7 out of the 10 most popular games on Steam work fine if you have Vulkan 1.3 drivers: https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=playerCount https://www.protondb.com/explore?sort=playerCount
- dagmx 2y ago
  of the top 10, I count 3: Counter Strike 2 Dota 2 Stardew Valley How are you getting 7/10 unless you're also counting games that happen to run under Proton, which aren't native? And regardless, that's a really small sample size to extrapolate from, when it's easy to get a more extensive list that is around ~250 games total. https://www.vulkan.org/made-with-vulkan https://www.vulkan.org/made-with-vulkan https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Vulkan_games https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Vulkan_games Of which, a massive percentage are based on engines that have Metal support as well.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    I'm sorting by playercount, which seems to be corroberated here: https://steamcharts.com/top https://steamcharts.com/top I am counting Proton games because they very explicitly are supported by sufficient Vulkan coverage. In case you weren't paying attention that's kinda the only reason anyone cares about Apple Silicon getting Vulkan 1.3 coverage in the first place. > when it's easy to get a more extensive list that is around ~250 games total. You're right, when we push it out to 1000 titles it gets closer to 80% playable: https://www.protondb.com/dashboard https://www.protondb.com/dashboard > Of which, a massive percentage are based on engines that have Metal support as well. ...yeah, you keep telling yourself that. One day, they'll definitely flip the switch on MacOS support. Certainly.
    - dagmx 2y ago
      Okay, so you're counting non-native games when the discussion is AGAIN clearly about native games. If we're talking about translation layers, then it's irrelevant because Whisky/Crossover can run them as well. This is just you being completely disingenuous now and purposefully avoiding the actual point of the discussion.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        This was never about native games. It would be very convenient if Proton didn't exist and native games were the only playable option, but in many cases Proton titles run better than native Windows. It's an equivalent, if not superior, experience. It would be a lot more disingenuous if the Steam Deck didn't exist and Linux gaming was a farce. But... it's not. And the only thing stopping Apple from enjoying the same spoils is a little bit of humility.
      - rowanG077 2y ago
        Dxvk is notoriously bad on moltenvk. I have tried and have completely given up running it.
      - tracker1 2y ago
        I think it's absolutely fair to count games that are able to run in Linux with Proton via DXVK + Vulcan. Since it's well established and relatively popular thanks to Valve's efforts with the Steam Deck and Proton. Given those efforts, if Apple/Mac had support for Vulkan, Valve would probably make it all just as available on Mac as they do on Linux for Proton.
        vilunov 2y ago
        Even with Vulkan support on macOS it would be harder for Valve to make many games accessible as they do on Linux – unlike Linux, macOS does not support running 32-bit binaries anymore.
        guipsp 2y ago
jeroenhd 2y ago
The amount of games that work with Vulkan may be very small, but at least they have a chance of working. The de facto standard API for games on computers, DirectX, will never receive a port. If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. I think Vulkan makes a lot of sense for macOS, actually; the Nintendo Switch, to which tons of games have been ported already, uses the ARM+Vulkan design and has a relatively weak GPU (but much weaker, as it's very old). It's not quite native, but a lot of supporting libraries that work on the Switch will also work on Mac. Everyone is talking about porting Windows games to Mac, but with the way things are developing, porting Switch games to Mac may actually make more sense, assuming Nintendo's promises for the upcoming Switch replacement are to be believed.
- troupo 2y ago
  > If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. Metal is supported on iOS. You know, one of the largest gaming platforms in the world.
  - philistine 2y ago
    THE largest gaming platform in the world. Users, sales, number of games, hours played. I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one. Enjoyable gaming experiences?
    - amlib 2y ago
      And yet most popular games on phones (both ios and android) are complete shit full of predatory practices with appalling gameplay and simple graphics, which barely benefit from those fancy graphics API anyway and could be reworked within weeks to use any other API. I do know apple is trying to push for AAA games on iphone but so far its a small drip on a giant cesspool. If you want actual good games, be it indies, AA or AAA, you go for one of the three consoles, windows or steam deck/linux.