5 ms·

One thing I don't get -- if the law doesn't help why don't the owners of these properties release fart spray everywhere and turn the heat up to max until it is

by dheera 2y ago

One thing I don't get -- if the law doesn't help why don't the owners of these properties release fart spray everywhere and turn the heat up to max until it is unlivable?

ds_opseeker 2y ago
because that is illegal?
- salmonfamine 2y ago
  So actual anarcho-tyranny?
diggan 2y ago
> why don't the owners of these properties release fart spray everywhere and turn the heat up to max until it is unlivable? If the okupas have been there for longer than 48 hours without you trying to get rid of them, doing something like that could be considered harassment and/or endangering the occupants' health, so you'd probably face criminal charges for it. You're not allowed to alter the living conditions to force them out, but you need to (within 48 hours of the occupation) legally get them out of the property.
- Adrox 2y ago
  Yup, lots of cases where the owners stopped paying/turned-off water, gas, electricity and the court made them turned them back on (and pay all the bills).
  - ssijak 2y ago
    madness
- dheera 2y ago
  What if your house already had fart spray releasers in the first place because you "love the smell", and your thermostat was "broken" in the first place? When you live there you know how to "fix" them but otherwise you are not obligated to fix them.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    You are living in pure fantasy. The squatters would simply fix the thermostats and disconnect the sprays. The buildings are occupied because the owner do not live there. Squatters target housings that are left empty by owners who are just speculating on the market.
    - alexpc201 2y ago
      No, in Barcelona, there are numerous examples of people who went on vacation, leaving their apartment completely closed, and it was occupied.
      - diggan 2y ago
        You seem to keep spreading this baseless rumor. "Occupation"/"Okupas" is considering properties beyond your primary residential property. I'm sure there are cases where okupas tried to take people's primary residential property, but the police absolutely help you to get rid of them quickly. I personally know a handful of cases where okupas tried to take people's primary residence that they just purchased and were in the process of reforming before moving, for example. And every single case was solved quickly by local police, as it's breaking and entering, not a occupation.
    - dheera 2y ago
      They wouldn't know how to fix the thermostat if I design the thermostat with huge amounts of obscurity, to the point where the heater doesn't even turn on without a secret key being sent to it, the heater has obscure security screws, and if the screws are breached, fart spray in sugar syrup gets released followed by a huge gust of feathers coated in itching powder. Bitter melon juice would be sprayed into the occupant's mouth via a computer vision controlled system that uses a neural net to track the occupant's mouth. If they attempt to disconnect that system, a 2nd system instantly activates with jalapeno sauce. If the jalapeno sauce is disconnected, a 3rd system activates with habanero sauce. The sprays could be made very difficult to disconnect. A new one would activate each day in a new location. If day 1 spray is disconnected, day 2 would be twice as much volume. It has been shown on Youtube that fart spray does work for theft, it's time to deploy it as an actual product everywhere.
- greenavocado 2y ago
  It's not within 48 hours of detecting them. It's within 48 hours of occupation. And they could always fabricate how long they have been there unless the area is under constant surveillance. Fabricating leases is very common.
  - diggan 2y ago
    True, thanks for correcting that, somehow got it wrong but edited now.
novariation 2y ago
I believe when they say the squatters have a "right to housing" it means "right to use a unit of housing that's not theirs as if they paid for it", which essentially means doing what you suggest would be illegal. The reality of the legal dimensions is probably much more complex though, but it's helpful to have a simplistic mental picture of what's expected to happen.
crote 2y ago
I am not familiar with the specifics in Spain, but in a lot of jurisdictions that would be illegal. Until they are legally evicted they have the exact same rights as regular tenants, and harassing them would be a crime. The reasoning behind this is that some shady landlords might try to claim that genuine tenants are squatters in order to get rid of them. There are plenty of desperate people who'd accept a verbal contract and payment in cash, after all. Not that hard of a choice when the alternative is being homeless. Oh, but you paid your rent a day late? Sorry, you're now a "squatter", so we're cooking you alive until you leave. Making it too easy to get rid of squatters would expose the most vulnerable people in society to even more abuse, and making it trickier for absentee landlords to get rid of real squatters is considered a fair price to prevent this.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  > try to claim that genuine tenants are squatters This, exactly. These kinds of slanted articles that only state the issue from the perspective of negligent absentee landlords, whether written by ChatGPT or otherwise, all have the same problem: that's not how property disputes are resolved. The first thing that a court would have to establish is that the person trying to remove another person from a given place would be whether the first person has any right to the place, and to what extent. And the next thing would be the question of whether the second person has a stake in the place, and the nature and extent of that interest. Then they have to balance interests. I know Spain is not America and doesn't share America's uniquely bad system of estates, but we see this all the time in America where a self-described landlord wants the county sheriff to immediately taser some old lady, but they can't even sufficiently demonstrate that they own the home.
- giantg2 2y ago
  The easy fix here is to require property contracts in writing and to be filed with the government and educate everyone on that point. We already do this for property sales to avoid these very issues on ownership. The same thing for leasing would provide better protections for both parties.
  - ggpsv 2y ago
itronitron 2y ago
The owners can hire contractors that will go to the property in order to help 'determine the conditions' under which the squatters will leave. My understanding is that it's usually a balance of physical intimidation and financial incentive.
- StevenHarlow 2y ago
  I have seen this happen with a building across the street from where I lived. There were 5 large men who could have easily been bouncers in Oakland outside with "FueraOkupa" shirts. The woman left later that day.
anonzzzies 2y ago
Well that does happen. It happened around me with a few houses that are empty during the winter (whatever you think of that): the squatters got refused service in the town by the bars, restaurants and super markets. People would accidentally walk into them so they would fall over. Every one drives straight at them when they walk only to correct at the last moment and shout profanities at them. People spit on them and say it’s the wind, throw hot coffee on them saying it’s an accident etc. Until they leave; you think the policia or guardia that has their familia living their all their lives and are probably family of the occupied houses is going to file anything? Didn’t take long two times it happened. Of course in less close knit communities it would be different; a third time was the house of an english bloke who only came over for the summer; they put all his stuff outside in the rain in the winter, made a weed grow place out of it and until they had proof of the weed, they couldn’t get them out. House was completely fucked when they got it back including the furniture which was outside all winter. Squatting is one thing and you could agree with it, but this shit is insane. And trying to get them doesn’t work as they clearly don’t have money to begin with.

by dheera 2y ago

One thing I don't get -- if the law doesn't help why don't the owners of these properties release fart spray everywhere and turn the heat up to max until it is unlivable?

ds_opseeker 2y ago

because that is illegal?

salmonfamine 2y ago
So actual anarcho-tyranny?

diggan 2y ago

> why don't the owners of these properties release fart spray everywhere and turn the heat up to max until it is unlivable? If the okupas have been there for longer than 48 hours without you trying to get rid of them, doing something like that could be considered harassment and/or endangering the occupants' health, so you'd probably face criminal charges for it. You're not allowed to alter the living conditions to force them out, but you need to (within 48 hours of the occupation) legally get them out of the property.

Adrox 2y ago
Yup, lots of cases where the owners stopped paying/turned-off water, gas, electricity and the court made them turned them back on (and pay all the bills).
- ssijak 2y ago
  madness
dheera 2y ago
What if your house already had fart spray releasers in the first place because you "love the smell", and your thermostat was "broken" in the first place? When you live there you know how to "fix" them but otherwise you are not obligated to fix them.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  You are living in pure fantasy. The squatters would simply fix the thermostats and disconnect the sprays. The buildings are occupied because the owner do not live there. Squatters target housings that are left empty by owners who are just speculating on the market.
  - alexpc201 2y ago
    No, in Barcelona, there are numerous examples of people who went on vacation, leaving their apartment completely closed, and it was occupied.
    - diggan 2y ago
      You seem to keep spreading this baseless rumor. "Occupation"/"Okupas" is considering properties beyond your primary residential property. I'm sure there are cases where okupas tried to take people's primary residential property, but the police absolutely help you to get rid of them quickly. I personally know a handful of cases where okupas tried to take people's primary residence that they just purchased and were in the process of reforming before moving, for example. And every single case was solved quickly by local police, as it's breaking and entering, not a occupation.
  - dheera 2y ago
    They wouldn't know how to fix the thermostat if I design the thermostat with huge amounts of obscurity, to the point where the heater doesn't even turn on without a secret key being sent to it, the heater has obscure security screws, and if the screws are breached, fart spray in sugar syrup gets released followed by a huge gust of feathers coated in itching powder. Bitter melon juice would be sprayed into the occupant's mouth via a computer vision controlled system that uses a neural net to track the occupant's mouth. If they attempt to disconnect that system, a 2nd system instantly activates with jalapeno sauce. If the jalapeno sauce is disconnected, a 3rd system activates with habanero sauce. The sprays could be made very difficult to disconnect. A new one would activate each day in a new location. If day 1 spray is disconnected, day 2 would be twice as much volume. It has been shown on Youtube that fart spray does work for theft, it's time to deploy it as an actual product everywhere.
greenavocado 2y ago
It's not within 48 hours of detecting them. It's within 48 hours of occupation. And they could always fabricate how long they have been there unless the area is under constant surveillance. Fabricating leases is very common.
- diggan 2y ago
  True, thanks for correcting that, somehow got it wrong but edited now.

novariation 2y ago

I believe when they say the squatters have a "right to housing" it means "right to use a unit of housing that's not theirs as if they paid for it", which essentially means doing what you suggest would be illegal. The reality of the legal dimensions is probably much more complex though, but it's helpful to have a simplistic mental picture of what's expected to happen.

crote 2y ago

I am not familiar with the specifics in Spain, but in a lot of jurisdictions that would be illegal. Until they are legally evicted they have the exact same rights as regular tenants, and harassing them would be a crime. The reasoning behind this is that some shady landlords might try to claim that genuine tenants are squatters in order to get rid of them. There are plenty of desperate people who'd accept a verbal contract and payment in cash, after all. Not that hard of a choice when the alternative is being homeless. Oh, but you paid your rent a day late? Sorry, you're now a "squatter", so we're cooking you alive until you leave. Making it too easy to get rid of squatters would expose the most vulnerable people in society to even more abuse, and making it trickier for absentee landlords to get rid of real squatters is considered a fair price to prevent this.

jeffbee 2y ago
> try to claim that genuine tenants are squatters This, exactly. These kinds of slanted articles that only state the issue from the perspective of negligent absentee landlords, whether written by ChatGPT or otherwise, all have the same problem: that's not how property disputes are resolved. The first thing that a court would have to establish is that the person trying to remove another person from a given place would be whether the first person has any right to the place, and to what extent. And the next thing would be the question of whether the second person has a stake in the place, and the nature and extent of that interest. Then they have to balance interests. I know Spain is not America and doesn't share America's uniquely bad system of estates, but we see this all the time in America where a self-described landlord wants the county sheriff to immediately taser some old lady, but they can't even sufficiently demonstrate that they own the home.
giantg2 2y ago
The easy fix here is to require property contracts in writing and to be filed with the government and educate everyone on that point. We already do this for property sales to avoid these very issues on ownership. The same thing for leasing would provide better protections for both parties.
- ggpsv 2y ago

itronitron 2y ago

The owners can hire contractors that will go to the property in order to help 'determine the conditions' under which the squatters will leave. My understanding is that it's usually a balance of physical intimidation and financial incentive.

StevenHarlow 2y ago
I have seen this happen with a building across the street from where I lived. There were 5 large men who could have easily been bouncers in Oakland outside with "FueraOkupa" shirts. The woman left later that day.

anonzzzies 2y ago

Well that does happen. It happened around me with a few houses that are empty during the winter (whatever you think of that): the squatters got refused service in the town by the bars, restaurants and super markets. People would accidentally walk into them so they would fall over. Every one drives straight at them when they walk only to correct at the last moment and shout profanities at them. People spit on them and say it’s the wind, throw hot coffee on them saying it’s an accident etc. Until they leave; you think the policia or guardia that has their familia living their all their lives and are probably family of the occupied houses is going to file anything? Didn’t take long two times it happened. Of course in less close knit communities it would be different; a third time was the house of an english bloke who only came over for the summer; they put all his stuff outside in the rain in the winter, made a weed grow place out of it and until they had proof of the weed, they couldn’t get them out. House was completely fucked when they got it back including the furniture which was outside all winter. Squatting is one thing and you could agree with it, but this shit is insane. And trying to get them doesn’t work as they clearly don’t have money to begin with.