5 ms·

And that's why the really precise resistors are so damn expensive. E.g. VPG makes a 10k 1/5W 0.001% tolerance ±0.2ppm/°C, but they're $116 each with a minimum o

And that's why the really precise resistors are so damn expensive. E.g. VPG makes a 10k 1/5W 0.001% tolerance ±0.2ppm/°C, but they're $116 each with a minimum order quantity of 25 on DigiKey (so $2900 minimum purchase). They've got a really expensive meter for their trimming setup!

galaxyLogic 2y ago
I see. I guess that's why high-end audio is so expensive
- atoav 2y ago
  As both a sound and electrical engineer I think most high end audio electronics is bullshit. If you know what you're doing a 50 cent opamp will give you results that are beyond what a human could identify in a double-randomized blind test. Same goes for comparing two rusty pieces of wire against highly pure copper speaker cables. For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. For audio applications 1% resistors are fine. You can use still affordable 0.1% in places where you truly care. Below that it is getting ridiculous, as the influence of harder to match things will take over. Things like speakers or the room they are placed in. How about the speed of sound changing with air temperature and humidity? You better have a room that has uniform and stabilized air temperature and humidity. A big part of the audiophile game is about psychological impact and the joy of personalized optimization. I spent a lot of money on audio equipment and a lot of time on researching it myself. It is an interesting thing. But in the end it is also physics that are interpreted by your brain and I can't help but feel bad for people who need to (incoming hyperbole) turn every part of their setup into gold in order to be able to enjoy listening to their equipment as music passes through it.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. It's hard to find XLR (or even TRS) balanced connectors on most non-professional (=TV studios, expensive conference room setups, DJs/clubs/similar venues) equipment.
    - frabert 2y ago
      We're talking audiophiles, it's not like they're trying to cheap out.
      - atoav 2y ago
        Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. I think this is more of a cultural divide than anything, with tradition being a big part of it. In the olden days balanced I/O had to be done using specialized transformers. Unless you got really expensive well wound ones these could degrade your signal significantly — that might've contributed to a bad rep in audiophile circles. But today you can balance or unbalance electronically with indistinguishable fidelity and... ironically a lot of the analog "warmth" people love in old recordings came from the transformer on the inputs of old mixing desks. There is really no reason to use unbalanced today other than being really pressed for money or running so short cables that it won't matter - and even then you could do better than RCA connectors.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        > Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. Yeah but who outside of people already interested in DJing buys that kind of stuff. It just looks ugly, unlike your classic home theater setup. Out of "looks decent (=passes the Spouse Acceptance Factor test)", "reasonably affordable" and "has decent quality", choose two... unless you got a partner accepting you literally putting up a 2m truss with lasers, movingheads and a strobe in your living room that could compete with a mid-range disco, and a 1.200W fogger on the ground. I'm lucky enough to have such a partner, but I'd say about 99% of people don't.
        galaxyLogic 2y ago
        There's something to it that the equipment should look beautiful in your living room, Bang and Olofssen -style. Music is beautiful, equipment playing it should be too. Or at least it enhances the experience.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. Is there a reason why they don't just use digital audio everywhere and convert to analog as late as possible? Inside the speakers for example? I mean, digital audio is pretty much perfect. Why are analog audio signals still a thing? People actually pay thousands of dollars for magical analog audio cables and it boggles my mind.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Good question, this is what most modern studio engineers would do, especially given that more and more speakers (like the Neumann KH120 II) feature internal FIR filters so you can calibrate them using measurement microphones. Many modern Studios run some form of digital audio network as well (Dante, Ravenna, etc) so you can go digital as early and close to the source as possible and do all the routing using network switches and some sort of managment software (e.g. Dante Domain Manager). So if you do that it makes sense to go digital all the way to the speakers and convert directly to analog there after running through a DSP that allows you to correct for the speakers position in the room. Cables can matter. But more for mechanical reliability, good shielding and perfect handling after years of use than any other magical properties. If you want to run balanced audio signals at miniscule loss for a few thousand meters it turns out that you can just use CAT6 for that. These cable are made for far more challenging (speak: higher frequency) signals and they have a track record of working.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      My speakers convert digital to analog. They have ethernet jacks in the back. Maybe you bought the wrong speakers? Stepping back for a moment… you see digital interconnects in high-end pro audio gear, using systems like Dante. These systems are NOT simple. When you have multiple digital audio systems connected together, you have to worry about whether they are all running from the same clock, or whether you can convert from one clock to another. Systems like AES solved this by having “word clock” running on separate coax cables with BNC connectors. If you look at consumer digital audio stuff, like Bluetooth speakers, you find all sorts of weird problems. It turns out that for cheap consumer gear, you get better quality audio from simple analog connections anyway. If you want speakers with digital inputs, you also need to power those speakers. That uses up more power outlets.
- SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
  Ha! No, they're not using metrology resistors, just ripping people off.
  - galaxyLogic 2y ago
    High-end audio is a status-symbol. It shows that not only you are rich, but that you are also sophisticated. But what happens if you don't like the music coming out of your stereo? No gold-plated connectors can cure that.
rchowe 2y ago
I'm not as familiar with foil resistors, but if you apply the same rules as thin film I would expect that you could trim this with a normal meter (the ± is 0.1 ohms) and the major cost driver is laser trim time and the space cost of some extra geometry on the resistor to support the tight tolerance (i.e. more fine trim features than standard). I believe Vishay's ±0.2ppm/°C TCR is a materials science process specific to one of the companies they own, so that is also a reason they can charge quite high prices. If you don't need that kind of TCR (i.e. your part is not going to space) the price should go down considerably for a thin film NiCr resistor (5 ppm - 25 ppm). There is actually a lot more direct sales and custom design volume than I would have expected when I started in this industry, so what you see on Digi-Key is not the entire market.

galaxyLogic 2y ago

I see. I guess that's why high-end audio is so expensive

atoav 2y ago
As both a sound and electrical engineer I think most high end audio electronics is bullshit. If you know what you're doing a 50 cent opamp will give you results that are beyond what a human could identify in a double-randomized blind test. Same goes for comparing two rusty pieces of wire against highly pure copper speaker cables. For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. For audio applications 1% resistors are fine. You can use still affordable 0.1% in places where you truly care. Below that it is getting ridiculous, as the influence of harder to match things will take over. Things like speakers or the room they are placed in. How about the speed of sound changing with air temperature and humidity? You better have a room that has uniform and stabilized air temperature and humidity. A big part of the audiophile game is about psychological impact and the joy of personalized optimization. I spent a lot of money on audio equipment and a lot of time on researching it myself. It is an interesting thing. But in the end it is also physics that are interpreted by your brain and I can't help but feel bad for people who need to (incoming hyperbole) turn every part of their setup into gold in order to be able to enjoy listening to their equipment as music passes through it.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. It's hard to find XLR (or even TRS) balanced connectors on most non-professional (=TV studios, expensive conference room setups, DJs/clubs/similar venues) equipment.
  - frabert 2y ago
    We're talking audiophiles, it's not like they're trying to cheap out.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. I think this is more of a cultural divide than anything, with tradition being a big part of it. In the olden days balanced I/O had to be done using specialized transformers. Unless you got really expensive well wound ones these could degrade your signal significantly — that might've contributed to a bad rep in audiophile circles. But today you can balance or unbalance electronically with indistinguishable fidelity and... ironically a lot of the analog "warmth" people love in old recordings came from the transformer on the inputs of old mixing desks. There is really no reason to use unbalanced today other than being really pressed for money or running so short cables that it won't matter - and even then you could do better than RCA connectors.
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        > Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. Yeah but who outside of people already interested in DJing buys that kind of stuff. It just looks ugly, unlike your classic home theater setup. Out of "looks decent (=passes the Spouse Acceptance Factor test)", "reasonably affordable" and "has decent quality", choose two... unless you got a partner accepting you literally putting up a 2m truss with lasers, movingheads and a strobe in your living room that could compete with a mid-range disco, and a 1.200W fogger on the ground. I'm lucky enough to have such a partner, but I'd say about 99% of people don't.
        galaxyLogic 2y ago
        There's something to it that the equipment should look beautiful in your living room, Bang and Olofssen -style. Music is beautiful, equipment playing it should be too. Or at least it enhances the experience.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. Is there a reason why they don't just use digital audio everywhere and convert to analog as late as possible? Inside the speakers for example? I mean, digital audio is pretty much perfect. Why are analog audio signals still a thing? People actually pay thousands of dollars for magical analog audio cables and it boggles my mind.
  - atoav 2y ago
    Good question, this is what most modern studio engineers would do, especially given that more and more speakers (like the Neumann KH120 II) feature internal FIR filters so you can calibrate them using measurement microphones. Many modern Studios run some form of digital audio network as well (Dante, Ravenna, etc) so you can go digital as early and close to the source as possible and do all the routing using network switches and some sort of managment software (e.g. Dante Domain Manager). So if you do that it makes sense to go digital all the way to the speakers and convert directly to analog there after running through a DSP that allows you to correct for the speakers position in the room. Cables can matter. But more for mechanical reliability, good shielding and perfect handling after years of use than any other magical properties. If you want to run balanced audio signals at miniscule loss for a few thousand meters it turns out that you can just use CAT6 for that. These cable are made for far more challenging (speak: higher frequency) signals and they have a track record of working.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      That makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    My speakers convert digital to analog. They have ethernet jacks in the back. Maybe you bought the wrong speakers? Stepping back for a moment… you see digital interconnects in high-end pro audio gear, using systems like Dante. These systems are NOT simple. When you have multiple digital audio systems connected together, you have to worry about whether they are all running from the same clock, or whether you can convert from one clock to another. Systems like AES solved this by having “word clock” running on separate coax cables with BNC connectors. If you look at consumer digital audio stuff, like Bluetooth speakers, you find all sorts of weird problems. It turns out that for cheap consumer gear, you get better quality audio from simple analog connections anyway. If you want speakers with digital inputs, you also need to power those speakers. That uses up more power outlets.
SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
Ha! No, they're not using metrology resistors, just ripping people off.
- galaxyLogic 2y ago
  High-end audio is a status-symbol. It shows that not only you are rich, but that you are also sophisticated. But what happens if you don't like the music coming out of your stereo? No gold-plated connectors can cure that.

rchowe 2y ago

I'm not as familiar with foil resistors, but if you apply the same rules as thin film I would expect that you could trim this with a normal meter (the ± is 0.1 ohms) and the major cost driver is laser trim time and the space cost of some extra geometry on the resistor to support the tight tolerance (i.e. more fine trim features than standard). I believe Vishay's ±0.2ppm/°C TCR is a materials science process specific to one of the companies they own, so that is also a reason they can charge quite high prices. If you don't need that kind of TCR (i.e. your part is not going to space) the price should go down considerably for a thin film NiCr resistor (5 ppm - 25 ppm). There is actually a lot more direct sales and custom design volume than I would have expected when I started in this industry, so what you see on Digi-Key is not the entire market.