5 ms·

> I checked Find My and my phone was indeed in China. It looked like it was in an office building conveniently located around the corner from an Adidas store, a

> I checked Find My and my phone was indeed in China. It looked like it was in an office building conveniently located around the corner from an Adidas store, about 8,000 miles from me. You’d think for a police state, China would be just little bit better at cracking down on obvious crime that happens within their borders. But I guess not.

gadflyinyoureye 2y ago
Well this isn’t against a citizen. Also look at the murders going on in China now.
- seadan83 2y ago
  Do you have any supporting citations on the crime/murder rate in China?
  - sugarkjube 2y ago
    I was curious after reading this, so I looked it up. Seems murder rate in china is 12 times lower than usa (source wikipedia). Actually murders rate in china is about the same as people killed by police in usa.
    - ImJamal 2y ago
      Do we have any evidence that China is telling the truth?
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  do you honestly think the murder rate in China is anywhere close to our own?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
ronsor 2y ago
1. Chinese government is not as competent as it tries to appear. 2. They do not care about foreigners or crimes unless they involve Chinese citizens.
- factormeta 2y ago
  >2. They do not care about foreigners or crimes unless they involve Chinese citizens. Don't know if they really care that much about Chinese citizens. Probably just the ones in the politburo.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    It's worked out remarkably well for Chinese citizens given they don't care at all about them, then
    - postingawayonhn 2y ago
      Their GDP per capita still lags significantly behind Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan who all aligned themselves with the west. Millions also died due to their rulers through the 20th century.
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        India seems like the much more obvious comparison than those countries
      - zztop44 2y ago
        Millions died due to their rulers in the decades before the Communist Party, too.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Chinese citizens are treated fairly similarly. There are plenty of unlawful activities that go unpoliced/unpunished (massage parlors), unless there happens to be a specific crackdown going on (otherwise, the police know what is going on and are probably getting a cut).
Xylakant 2y ago
The police state is interested in maintaining the power structure in the police state. As long as petty or even organized crime does not upset the balance of power, the authorities couldn’t care less - crime against Americans is no danger to them. Just as the Russian government has no interest in cracking down on its blackhat population, as long as they target non-Russian orgs.
- genter 2y ago
  Russian government is the blackhat population.
  - TrainedMonkey 2y ago
    I have a theory that Russians foster black hat population while collecting evidence as a matter of national policy... so they could slowly recruit / quickly gang press talent from. Kind of like strategic reserve of hackers / zero days / etc.
    - netsharc 2y ago
      Yeah, a bit like corrupt politicians in China (or anywhere, really), you can be corrupt, but if some other powerful politician doesn't like you, they'll arrest and ruin your life for corruption... Even though maybe the judge and police are also corrupt. Or in Egypt, you have to bribe to get a job as a police officer, your superior expects a tribute each month because his superiors expect one, all the way to the top, so you bully the public for bribes/protection money, that's why the police were so passionate about suppressing anti-government protests during the Arab Spring, their livelihood depended on it. Meanwhile the Egyptian military had its own economy to supply themselves (eg a factory making soap, or bread) and were viewed by the public as trustworthy. All in a fascinating book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25622863-thieves-of-state https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25622863-thieves-of-stat...
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    I have worked with a bunch of Russian devs over the last few decades. They really aren't the same group. Black hats (criminals), Government, and commercial devs are pretty distinct, and dont often over lap on a day to day basis. That having been said the government jobs are available to either group (sometimes not by "choice") and there is a revolving door there. It's not so far removed from the university, drug company/reseearch, FDA revolving doors that we have for Drug development in the US.
barnabask 2y ago
Misconception: police solve crimes. Truth: police protect their employers.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Misconception: Police are trained to investigate and solve crime Reality: Police absolutely hate doing the "boring" parts of their jobs. Property crime clearance rate is an abysmal ~10% and everyone knows a handful of people who reported a theft, large or otherwise, and got nothing but a police report. Meanwhile they had plenty of time to come to our local supermarket and harass a 6 year old that tried to pocket a candybar. They took him into the security camera room and hassled this kid for several hours, zero parents involved. The American police do not feel required to do their damn jobs, unless it involves physical activity or a gun. The boring stuff, like submitting hundreds of stored rape kits to labs to literally catch rapists, doesn't get done, ever.
  - eevilspock 2y ago
    On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with. ~ I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing, http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer
    - estebank 2y ago
      > Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with. This is why I find it bizarre that the behavior of bad cops is minimized by calling them "a few bad apples", when the entire aphorism is "one bad apple spoils the bunch".
      - mrguyorama 2y ago
JumpinJack_Cash 2y ago
> > cracking down on obvious crime As inconvenient as it is for the author and those in their similar situation this sort of petty crime is about on the same level as bustinng a massage parlor. And honestly it woul hold the same low priority everywhere not just in China
colordrops 2y ago
China is not a police state, they are a military state. The US is a police state. In China the local cops are generally far more hands off than an in the US. China is more top-down from the national level. In the US, local police are the typical mechanism for control.
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  [flagged]
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  [flagged]
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Cops are hands off. When they need hands on, they call in the PAP. They are armed and have the riot control gear. China is top-down, except when it isn't, then its very bottom up. Is is sort of dichotomy of a central government with absolute authority but a limited attention span.
  - lazide 2y ago
    The central gov’t is a bit eye-of-Sauron like. When it notices you, you’re in deep shit. But for the most part, it doesn’t notice 95% of what is actually happening.
darth_avocado 2y ago
Often stances of the governments across the world are: we’ll ignore it unless it becomes a problem for us. Often, in organized crime, money flows back to the government and creates job opportunities for people that keeps them happy. There is a reason. Why there’s so many scam call centers in India. The government will turn a blind eye until someone comes in with proof that raises a stink or if other international government agencies get involved.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > There is a reason. Why there’s so many scam call centers in India. According to a commenter on HN from a few months ago [1], the reason is a political division - the scam callcenters are in West Bengal, where the ruling political party turns a blind eye due to corruption and to provide annoyance towards the federal government ruled by the BJP. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968542
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    Corruption is definitely part of it, but I wouldn’t blame it purely on politics. Kolkata in West Bengal definitely has scam call centers but that’s only one of the cities. Gurugram near New Delhi [2], Hyderabad [1], Bangalore [3] and Pune all have scam call centers and all of them fall under the governance of different regional and national political parties. [1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/fake-call-center-duping-us-citizens-raided-in-hyderabad-115-cyber-fraudsters-held/amp_articleshow/102656202.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/fake-call... [2] https://www.thestatesman.com/cities/delhi/two-illegal-bpos-busted-in-delhi-26-arrested-for-cheating-us-nationals-1503265651.html/amp https://www.thestatesman.com/cities/delhi/two-illegal-bpos-b... [3] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/call-centre-fraud-72-employees-were-paid-in-cash-ferried-in-school-buses/amp_articleshow/92758061.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/call-cent...
whimsicalism 2y ago
If we angled more towards detente with China, they probably would - but why do they have any reason to crack down on crime targeting an 'adversary' state? The US hosts many Chinese criminal financiers and embezzlers that we have no intention of extraditing to China.
kccqzy 2y ago
The police does in fact care about phones belonging to Chinese owners stolen in China. They couldn't care less about phones belonging to Americans stolen in America.
- chasil 2y ago
  I would prefer to see Apple move more manufacturing to India, citing these theft centers as one of many reasons. Whatever country allows it should lose legitimate commerce as a consequence. My own included, if we are found to be guilty.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    Doesn't solve the problem. The Chinese can still "recycle" phones manufactured in India.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Same with illicit fentanyl: sell it in China -> Death penalty, no mercy. Ship it off to America to be sold cheaply to addicts -> no problem.
seoulmetro 2y ago
Much like the US or Europe? Yeah... money comes first.
geraneum 2y ago
That “police” in “police state” is a different concept than the police you know of.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
China simply isn't a police state. More to the point, it is authoritarian, but you also have things like prostitution going on in broad day light. The central and local governments have a very focused attention span, and if what bad thing you are doing is outside of that, they probably won't notice. Just don't sell/buy drugs, or get into fights when drunk.
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
If the police in New York clearly didn't care about a crime that was committed here, why would the Chinese care about it 8,000 miles away from where it happened?
IncreasePosts 2y ago
The law in China is: if it affects social order, then feel the state's wrath. Anything else is a free for all.

gadflyinyoureye 2y ago

Well this isn’t against a citizen. Also look at the murders going on in China now.

seadan83 2y ago
Do you have any supporting citations on the crime/murder rate in China?
- sugarkjube 2y ago
  I was curious after reading this, so I looked it up. Seems murder rate in china is 12 times lower than usa (source wikipedia). Actually murders rate in china is about the same as people killed by police in usa.
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    Do we have any evidence that China is telling the truth?
whimsicalism 2y ago
do you honestly think the murder rate in China is anywhere close to our own?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

ronsor 2y ago

1. Chinese government is not as competent as it tries to appear. 2. They do not care about foreigners or crimes unless they involve Chinese citizens.

factormeta 2y ago
>2. They do not care about foreigners or crimes unless they involve Chinese citizens. Don't know if they really care that much about Chinese citizens. Probably just the ones in the politburo.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  It's worked out remarkably well for Chinese citizens given they don't care at all about them, then
  - postingawayonhn 2y ago
    Their GDP per capita still lags significantly behind Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan who all aligned themselves with the west. Millions also died due to their rulers through the 20th century.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      India seems like the much more obvious comparison than those countries
    - zztop44 2y ago
      Millions died due to their rulers in the decades before the Communist Party, too.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Chinese citizens are treated fairly similarly. There are plenty of unlawful activities that go unpoliced/unpunished (massage parlors), unless there happens to be a specific crackdown going on (otherwise, the police know what is going on and are probably getting a cut).

Xylakant 2y ago

The police state is interested in maintaining the power structure in the police state. As long as petty or even organized crime does not upset the balance of power, the authorities couldn’t care less - crime against Americans is no danger to them. Just as the Russian government has no interest in cracking down on its blackhat population, as long as they target non-Russian orgs.

genter 2y ago
Russian government is the blackhat population.
- TrainedMonkey 2y ago
  I have a theory that Russians foster black hat population while collecting evidence as a matter of national policy... so they could slowly recruit / quickly gang press talent from. Kind of like strategic reserve of hackers / zero days / etc.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    Yeah, a bit like corrupt politicians in China (or anywhere, really), you can be corrupt, but if some other powerful politician doesn't like you, they'll arrest and ruin your life for corruption... Even though maybe the judge and police are also corrupt. Or in Egypt, you have to bribe to get a job as a police officer, your superior expects a tribute each month because his superiors expect one, all the way to the top, so you bully the public for bribes/protection money, that's why the police were so passionate about suppressing anti-government protests during the Arab Spring, their livelihood depended on it. Meanwhile the Egyptian military had its own economy to supply themselves (eg a factory making soap, or bread) and were viewed by the public as trustworthy. All in a fascinating book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25622863-thieves-of-state https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25622863-thieves-of-stat...
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  I have worked with a bunch of Russian devs over the last few decades. They really aren't the same group. Black hats (criminals), Government, and commercial devs are pretty distinct, and dont often over lap on a day to day basis. That having been said the government jobs are available to either group (sometimes not by "choice") and there is a revolving door there. It's not so far removed from the university, drug company/reseearch, FDA revolving doors that we have for Drug development in the US.

barnabask 2y ago

Misconception: police solve crimes. Truth: police protect their employers.

mrguyorama 2y ago
Misconception: Police are trained to investigate and solve crime Reality: Police absolutely hate doing the "boring" parts of their jobs. Property crime clearance rate is an abysmal ~10% and everyone knows a handful of people who reported a theft, large or otherwise, and got nothing but a police report. Meanwhile they had plenty of time to come to our local supermarket and harass a 6 year old that tried to pocket a candybar. They took him into the security camera room and hassled this kid for several hours, zero parents involved. The American police do not feel required to do their damn jobs, unless it involves physical activity or a gun. The boring stuff, like submitting hundreds of stored rape kits to labs to literally catch rapists, doesn't get done, ever.
- eevilspock 2y ago
  On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with. ~ I'm a black ex-cop, and this is the real truth about race and policing, http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer
  - estebank 2y ago
    > Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with. This is why I find it bizarre that the behavior of bad cops is minimized by calling them "a few bad apples", when the entire aphorism is "one bad apple spoils the bunch".
    - mrguyorama 2y ago

JumpinJack_Cash 2y ago

> > cracking down on obvious crime As inconvenient as it is for the author and those in their similar situation this sort of petty crime is about on the same level as bustinng a massage parlor. And honestly it woul hold the same low priority everywhere not just in China

colordrops 2y ago

China is not a police state, they are a military state. The US is a police state. In China the local cops are generally far more hands off than an in the US. China is more top-down from the national level. In the US, local police are the typical mechanism for control.

emptysongglass 2y ago
[flagged]
seoulmetro 2y ago
[flagged]
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Cops are hands off. When they need hands on, they call in the PAP. They are armed and have the riot control gear. China is top-down, except when it isn't, then its very bottom up. Is is sort of dichotomy of a central government with absolute authority but a limited attention span.
- lazide 2y ago
  The central gov’t is a bit eye-of-Sauron like. When it notices you, you’re in deep shit. But for the most part, it doesn’t notice 95% of what is actually happening.

darth_avocado 2y ago

Often stances of the governments across the world are: we’ll ignore it unless it becomes a problem for us. Often, in organized crime, money flows back to the government and creates job opportunities for people that keeps them happy. There is a reason. Why there’s so many scam call centers in India. The government will turn a blind eye until someone comes in with proof that raises a stink or if other international government agencies get involved.

mschuster91 2y ago
> There is a reason. Why there’s so many scam call centers in India. According to a commenter on HN from a few months ago [1], the reason is a political division - the scam callcenters are in West Bengal, where the ruling political party turns a blind eye due to corruption and to provide annoyance towards the federal government ruled by the BJP. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38968542
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  Corruption is definitely part of it, but I wouldn’t blame it purely on politics. Kolkata in West Bengal definitely has scam call centers but that’s only one of the cities. Gurugram near New Delhi [2], Hyderabad [1], Bangalore [3] and Pune all have scam call centers and all of them fall under the governance of different regional and national political parties. [1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/fake-call-center-duping-us-citizens-raided-in-hyderabad-115-cyber-fraudsters-held/amp_articleshow/102656202.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/fake-call... [2] https://www.thestatesman.com/cities/delhi/two-illegal-bpos-busted-in-delhi-26-arrested-for-cheating-us-nationals-1503265651.html/amp https://www.thestatesman.com/cities/delhi/two-illegal-bpos-b... [3] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/call-centre-fraud-72-employees-were-paid-in-cash-ferried-in-school-buses/amp_articleshow/92758061.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/call-cent...

whimsicalism 2y ago

If we angled more towards detente with China, they probably would - but why do they have any reason to crack down on crime targeting an 'adversary' state? The US hosts many Chinese criminal financiers and embezzlers that we have no intention of extraditing to China.

kccqzy 2y ago

The police does in fact care about phones belonging to Chinese owners stolen in China. They couldn't care less about phones belonging to Americans stolen in America.

chasil 2y ago
I would prefer to see Apple move more manufacturing to India, citing these theft centers as one of many reasons. Whatever country allows it should lose legitimate commerce as a consequence. My own included, if we are found to be guilty.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  Doesn't solve the problem. The Chinese can still "recycle" phones manufactured in India.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Same with illicit fentanyl: sell it in China -> Death penalty, no mercy. Ship it off to America to be sold cheaply to addicts -> no problem.

seoulmetro 2y ago

Much like the US or Europe? Yeah... money comes first.

geraneum 2y ago

That “police” in “police state” is a different concept than the police you know of.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

China simply isn't a police state. More to the point, it is authoritarian, but you also have things like prostitution going on in broad day light. The central and local governments have a very focused attention span, and if what bad thing you are doing is outside of that, they probably won't notice. Just don't sell/buy drugs, or get into fights when drunk.

StanislavPetrov 2y ago

If the police in New York clearly didn't care about a crime that was committed here, why would the Chinese care about it 8,000 miles away from where it happened?

IncreasePosts 2y ago

The law in China is: if it affects social order, then feel the state's wrath. Anything else is a free for all.