6 ms·

Air Canada ordered to pay couple $2k. Instead, it's taking them to court

77 points by jabsters 2y ago

tedunangst 2y ago
> Air Canada's Fitzpatrick says launching the case was the only way the airline could get clarity on the new CTA officers' obligations when assessing evidence. ... The CTA has asked the court for permission to participate in the case but Air Canada is fighting the request. Weird that you would be opposed to participation of the very people you're seeking clarity on.
- nickff 2y ago
  It seems like they're looking for a judge's opinion the CTA officers' obligations, not the CTA's view.
- voxic11 2y ago
  They already have the CTA's opinion on their own officer's obligations, they just don't like it so they are hoping the court will have a different opinion, which would be made less likely if the CTA was involved in the case.
scohesc 2y ago
It's obvious that Air Canada is trying to avoid setting precedent for what qualifies for compensation here. Canada has a foul domestic airline industry. More times than not from what I've looked at and read - it's cheaper to fly domestic in Canada by picking an international flight that has a layover in the USA than it is to fly solely domestic in Canada - with all the extra fees, charges, etc. etc. etc. Just a side effect of the government and oligopolies in Canada turning the screws trying to extract more and more money out of their citizens.
- abid786 2y ago
  This hasn't been true for a long time now, more so for major routes. Just to check, I looked up prices for flights from LAX-JFK and compared them to a flight from Vancouver to Toronto, both in the middle of July. The Canadian flight was $18 cheaper, if you exclude low cost carriers. If you include LCCs, the Canadian option was about 10% more expensive. Canadian oligopolies are very real and exist in telecom, grocery, banking, energy and mass media, the airline industry has gotten slightly better over the past decade
lolc 2y ago
> He [Air Canada's Fitzpatrick] added that the Dyczkowskis won't be on the hook for legal fees if the airline is victorious. Sounds alright, doesn't it? > The Dyczkowskis' lawyer, Peter Choe, who is working pro bono, So they need a lawyer working pro bono for them to not have legal fees. Got it.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Legal fees extend beyond lawyer fees but it does make it less helpful than it might first sound.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Yeah, that is some grade A PR spin-doctoring. "They won't be on the hook for OUR legal fees". Props to Peter Choe, because otherwise... federal court cases are not cheap[1]. [1] My brother's ex's new partner sold a house to fight a decision to euthanize her dog for biting incidents in federal court. Leaving aside the wisdom of this choice, it's ... "not cheap".
maximinus_thrax 2y ago
What's going on with Air Canada? Off the top of my head, they've been in the news a couple of times recently for some very nasty stuff: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-canada-vomit-apology-scli-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-canada-vomit-apology-... with extra customer care: > Benson goes on to relate how a pilot then came down the plane to speak to the passengers, telling them that “they could leave the plane… and organize flights on their own dime, or they would be escorted off the plane by security and placed on a no fly list!” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/air-canada-wheelchair-disabled-man-drag-himself-off-flight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/air-canada-whe... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/air-canada-chatbot-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/air-canada-cha...
- nvy 2y ago
  Canadian here. Air Canada has had awful UX for as long as I can remember. They're just generally trash.
anon373839 2y ago
> Fitzpatrick said Air Canada didn't target the CTA because that's how Canada's judicial system works. > "The original case was between the passenger and Air Canada, therefore the review of the decision is between the same parties," he said. Any Canadian lawyers care to comment if this is actually a special requirement of Canadian law? In the US, you sue the agency to challenge an administrative order. Suing the aggrieved individual sure sounds like a tactic to dissuade others from making complaints.
- nickff 2y ago
  IANAL, but this isn’t an administrative order, it’s a decision by an agency in a proceeding. It’s analogous to appealing a court judgement; you appeal by bringing the same dispute (with the same parties) to a higher court, not by launching a lawsuit against the lower court. The USA is similar.
ics 2y ago
Last year I was on an Air Canada flight which was delayed over 6 hours, leaving my family and I at the airport in the middle of the night with no public transportation, no communication, oh and they lost our stroller enroute which meant by the time we were outside there were no cabs or another soul in sight. Frustrating, but I had read up on the rules for delays during our wait and was confident that at least we would be reimbursed something. When a random cab driver finally came by possibly just to catch some shut-eye, a $400 ride sounded better than sleeping outside the airport with a toddler and no food or bathroom. After contacting Air Canada customer service and going through their complaint process, the responses were always that our flight was not delayed referencing the first leg but always omitting the second (the complaint was only made on the second leg, using that flight number, so not like it was left out). Well, I eventually got hold of an actual representative who, after a polite exchange or two, stopped responding to any further communication. I filed a case with CTA, citing the relevant Air Canada policies as well as the CTA delays and cancellations guidelines. Plenty of nuances around what is in or out of the airline's control, but supposedly a new rule went into effect last September which would provide compensation in either case. Disappointingly, the CTA reviewer closed the case in under 30 minutes from the airline's response without directly addressing any of this, leaving me with apparently no further option but I suppose to sue in Canadian court? Though I might have even signed away that right by entrusting the CTA with some form of arbitration. The money and time lost is one thing but the CTA's handling has made me unlikely to ever fly to/through Canada again if I can help it.
- gruez 2y ago
  >[...] always omitting the second [...] You're omitting a lot of information yourself. What was the reason given by the airline and CTA for why your claim was invalid? How was the flight booked? What was the nature of the delay? Why was the cab ride $400? How did you even get to a taxi stand? If you're waiting for a connecting flight wouldn't you be trapped in the airport airside?
  - ics 2y ago
    Well, yes, I'm making a comment on the internet about my negative experience with Air Canada and CTA in about 15 minutes. The claim itself had all the information and took hours to compile, I'm not sure how long it would take for me to simplify that point by point without still missing something. - The delay was caused initially by a safety critical instrument being recognized as faulty, which required the airline to seek a replacement aircraft. This was deemed out of control of the airline, with subsequent staffing and catering issues cascading (in airline's control). - CTA stated that because the primary issue was safety critical and outside of their control, passengers were not due compensation. - CTA made no acknowledgement of the claims that 1) Air Canada did not inform passengers the nature or possible length of delay, 2) did not offer any rebooking, accommodation, or food/drink during extended layover, and 3) the Regulations Amending the Air Passenger Protections Regulations (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/content/new-refund-regulations-now-force) which requires the airline to at least communicate but in many cases offer reimbursement regardless of whether an incident is in or out of their control. - Flight was booked with Air Canada. - Cab ride was at our final destination, from Tokyo NRT to Yokohama where family resides. Instead of landing in the afternoon, it was well past normal arrival hours and everyone staff included was clearing out. By the time we got outside, taxi stand was empty, nobody was around, airport was locked behind us. Waited approx. two hours before one randomly showed up. (Yes, we were trying to call any local services in the meantime but of the ones which I could actually connect to without a local # none were actually able to send a driver to where we were.) When Air Canada submitted their response initially I was impressed because of the level of detail it revealed, including snippets of flight and maintenance logs. However, in reading the response from CTA I gather that was their strategy to dump as much info "in good faith" to make it appear that they really did their best and then the reviewer will more likely take it at face value. I am still genuinely perplexed that they addressed Air Canada's response point-by-point, but not the claim itself which was hinging really on the new regulations. Obviously I don't want to fly on an aircraft with knowingly compromised safety, but if they had simply alerted passengers what was happening and what to expect then I would've arranged a pick up in advance or requested that we catch a flight the next day. Throughout the delay, I received 4-5 texts simply saying there was a catering issue that would be resolved "soon".
red369 2y ago
I don't have much experience of Air Canada, but it's all been bad so far. Someone I know was not allowed on the flight because their ticket had been booked on their behalf and they didn't have that credit card with them. Air Canada gave no warning of this leading up to the flight, and there was nothing in their policy online. I found Air Canada had previously apologised for a similar incident, but apparently they learned nothing from that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38179443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38179443 The cynical part of me suspects they use it to bump people off full flights since it always works out cheaper for them than the compensation.
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
Once again Canada shows its true colours. I have not seen anything about that country which is in anyway exemplary. Mediocre down to its seams. Air Canada might be the worst of the lot. I had once flown in it's "business class" and it was like going in the lowest class of Etihad. Also the airports are chaotic with luggage being misplaced and delayed almost every single time.
- tail_exchange 2y ago
  I don't know why you have this weird hatred towards Canada (looking at your post history, it's not the first time). Especially considering that the US is far from a model country right now, and I very clearly remember when passengers were assaulted and forcibly removed from a United flight a few years ago. Canada is not perfect, but there is a lot to like about it.
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    > I don't know why you have this weird hatred towards Canada Let's say I live in the US and I hate the US, if you're being handwavy about it. There's nothing weird about finding enough bad in a country to badmouth it in aggregate.
    - tail_exchange 2y ago
      I find it weird because the criticism was not that Canada is bad, but that it's not exemplary in any way, as if that's a good reason to badmouth something. I don't find Slovenia exemplary in any way either, but that's not a good reason for me to badmouth it. Of course being perfect at everything is the ideal, but in practical terms, being mediocre (in the sense of being average) is... just fine? Just seems like a weird thing to say.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  Did you mean country or company?

77 points by jabsters 2y ago

> Air Canada's Fitzpatrick says launching the case was the only way the airline could get clarity on the new CTA officers' obligations when assessing evidence. ... The CTA has asked the court for permission to participate in the case but Air Canada is fighting the request. Weird that you would be opposed to participation of the very people you're seeking clarity on.

nickff 2y ago
It seems like they're looking for a judge's opinion the CTA officers' obligations, not the CTA's view.
voxic11 2y ago
They already have the CTA's opinion on their own officer's obligations, they just don't like it so they are hoping the court will have a different opinion, which would be made less likely if the CTA was involved in the case.

scohesc 2y ago

It's obvious that Air Canada is trying to avoid setting precedent for what qualifies for compensation here. Canada has a foul domestic airline industry. More times than not from what I've looked at and read - it's cheaper to fly domestic in Canada by picking an international flight that has a layover in the USA than it is to fly solely domestic in Canada - with all the extra fees, charges, etc. etc. etc. Just a side effect of the government and oligopolies in Canada turning the screws trying to extract more and more money out of their citizens.

abid786 2y ago
This hasn't been true for a long time now, more so for major routes. Just to check, I looked up prices for flights from LAX-JFK and compared them to a flight from Vancouver to Toronto, both in the middle of July. The Canadian flight was $18 cheaper, if you exclude low cost carriers. If you include LCCs, the Canadian option was about 10% more expensive. Canadian oligopolies are very real and exist in telecom, grocery, banking, energy and mass media, the airline industry has gotten slightly better over the past decade

lolc 2y ago

> He [Air Canada's Fitzpatrick] added that the Dyczkowskis won't be on the hook for legal fees if the airline is victorious. Sounds alright, doesn't it? > The Dyczkowskis' lawyer, Peter Choe, who is working pro bono, So they need a lawyer working pro bono for them to not have legal fees. Got it.

zamadatix 2y ago
Legal fees extend beyond lawyer fees but it does make it less helpful than it might first sound.
FireBeyond 2y ago
Yeah, that is some grade A PR spin-doctoring. "They won't be on the hook for OUR legal fees". Props to Peter Choe, because otherwise... federal court cases are not cheap[1]. [1] My brother's ex's new partner sold a house to fight a decision to euthanize her dog for biting incidents in federal court. Leaving aside the wisdom of this choice, it's ... "not cheap".

maximinus_thrax 2y ago

What's going on with Air Canada? Off the top of my head, they've been in the news a couple of times recently for some very nasty stuff: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-canada-vomit-apology-scli-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/air-canada-vomit-apology-... with extra customer care: > Benson goes on to relate how a pilot then came down the plane to speak to the passengers, telling them that “they could leave the plane… and organize flights on their own dime, or they would be escorted off the plane by security and placed on a no fly list!” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/air-canada-wheelchair-disabled-man-drag-himself-off-flight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/air-canada-whe... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/air-canada-chatbot-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/16/air-canada-cha...

nvy 2y ago
Canadian here. Air Canada has had awful UX for as long as I can remember. They're just generally trash.

anon373839 2y ago

> Fitzpatrick said Air Canada didn't target the CTA because that's how Canada's judicial system works. > "The original case was between the passenger and Air Canada, therefore the review of the decision is between the same parties," he said. Any Canadian lawyers care to comment if this is actually a special requirement of Canadian law? In the US, you sue the agency to challenge an administrative order. Suing the aggrieved individual sure sounds like a tactic to dissuade others from making complaints.

nickff 2y ago
IANAL, but this isn’t an administrative order, it’s a decision by an agency in a proceeding. It’s analogous to appealing a court judgement; you appeal by bringing the same dispute (with the same parties) to a higher court, not by launching a lawsuit against the lower court. The USA is similar.

ics 2y ago

Last year I was on an Air Canada flight which was delayed over 6 hours, leaving my family and I at the airport in the middle of the night with no public transportation, no communication, oh and they lost our stroller enroute which meant by the time we were outside there were no cabs or another soul in sight. Frustrating, but I had read up on the rules for delays during our wait and was confident that at least we would be reimbursed something. When a random cab driver finally came by possibly just to catch some shut-eye, a $400 ride sounded better than sleeping outside the airport with a toddler and no food or bathroom. After contacting Air Canada customer service and going through their complaint process, the responses were always that our flight was not delayed referencing the first leg but always omitting the second (the complaint was only made on the second leg, using that flight number, so not like it was left out). Well, I eventually got hold of an actual representative who, after a polite exchange or two, stopped responding to any further communication. I filed a case with CTA, citing the relevant Air Canada policies as well as the CTA delays and cancellations guidelines. Plenty of nuances around what is in or out of the airline's control, but supposedly a new rule went into effect last September which would provide compensation in either case. Disappointingly, the CTA reviewer closed the case in under 30 minutes from the airline's response without directly addressing any of this, leaving me with apparently no further option but I suppose to sue in Canadian court? Though I might have even signed away that right by entrusting the CTA with some form of arbitration. The money and time lost is one thing but the CTA's handling has made me unlikely to ever fly to/through Canada again if I can help it.

gruez 2y ago
>[...] always omitting the second [...] You're omitting a lot of information yourself. What was the reason given by the airline and CTA for why your claim was invalid? How was the flight booked? What was the nature of the delay? Why was the cab ride $400? How did you even get to a taxi stand? If you're waiting for a connecting flight wouldn't you be trapped in the airport airside?
- ics 2y ago
  Well, yes, I'm making a comment on the internet about my negative experience with Air Canada and CTA in about 15 minutes. The claim itself had all the information and took hours to compile, I'm not sure how long it would take for me to simplify that point by point without still missing something. - The delay was caused initially by a safety critical instrument being recognized as faulty, which required the airline to seek a replacement aircraft. This was deemed out of control of the airline, with subsequent staffing and catering issues cascading (in airline's control). - CTA stated that because the primary issue was safety critical and outside of their control, passengers were not due compensation. - CTA made no acknowledgement of the claims that 1) Air Canada did not inform passengers the nature or possible length of delay, 2) did not offer any rebooking, accommodation, or food/drink during extended layover, and 3) the Regulations Amending the Air Passenger Protections Regulations (https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/content/new-refund-regulations-now-force) which requires the airline to at least communicate but in many cases offer reimbursement regardless of whether an incident is in or out of their control. - Flight was booked with Air Canada. - Cab ride was at our final destination, from Tokyo NRT to Yokohama where family resides. Instead of landing in the afternoon, it was well past normal arrival hours and everyone staff included was clearing out. By the time we got outside, taxi stand was empty, nobody was around, airport was locked behind us. Waited approx. two hours before one randomly showed up. (Yes, we were trying to call any local services in the meantime but of the ones which I could actually connect to without a local # none were actually able to send a driver to where we were.) When Air Canada submitted their response initially I was impressed because of the level of detail it revealed, including snippets of flight and maintenance logs. However, in reading the response from CTA I gather that was their strategy to dump as much info "in good faith" to make it appear that they really did their best and then the reviewer will more likely take it at face value. I am still genuinely perplexed that they addressed Air Canada's response point-by-point, but not the claim itself which was hinging really on the new regulations. Obviously I don't want to fly on an aircraft with knowingly compromised safety, but if they had simply alerted passengers what was happening and what to expect then I would've arranged a pick up in advance or requested that we catch a flight the next day. Throughout the delay, I received 4-5 texts simply saying there was a catering issue that would be resolved "soon".

red369 2y ago

I don't have much experience of Air Canada, but it's all been bad so far. Someone I know was not allowed on the flight because their ticket had been booked on their behalf and they didn't have that credit card with them. Air Canada gave no warning of this leading up to the flight, and there was nothing in their policy online. I found Air Canada had previously apologised for a similar incident, but apparently they learned nothing from that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38179443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38179443 The cynical part of me suspects they use it to bump people off full flights since it always works out cheaper for them than the compensation.

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

Once again Canada shows its true colours. I have not seen anything about that country which is in anyway exemplary. Mediocre down to its seams. Air Canada might be the worst of the lot. I had once flown in it's "business class" and it was like going in the lowest class of Etihad. Also the airports are chaotic with luggage being misplaced and delayed almost every single time.

tail_exchange 2y ago
I don't know why you have this weird hatred towards Canada (looking at your post history, it's not the first time). Especially considering that the US is far from a model country right now, and I very clearly remember when passengers were assaulted and forcibly removed from a United flight a few years ago. Canada is not perfect, but there is a lot to like about it.
- Supermancho 2y ago
  > I don't know why you have this weird hatred towards Canada Let's say I live in the US and I hate the US, if you're being handwavy about it. There's nothing weird about finding enough bad in a country to badmouth it in aggregate.
  - tail_exchange 2y ago
    I find it weird because the criticism was not that Canada is bad, but that it's not exemplary in any way, as if that's a good reason to badmouth something. I don't find Slovenia exemplary in any way either, but that's not a good reason for me to badmouth it. Of course being perfect at everything is the ideal, but in practical terms, being mediocre (in the sense of being average) is... just fine? Just seems like a weird thing to say.
rkagerer 2y ago
Did you mean country or company?