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I hope cosmic puts an end to this neverending discussions about bad decisions from the gnome foundation. They can go under for all I care. Overall I truly belie

I hope cosmic puts an end to this neverending discussions about bad decisions from the gnome foundation. They can go under for all I care. Overall I truly believe they did a disservice to the whole Linux Desktop and the community over the last 15 years.

pid-1 2y ago
What's cosmic?
- ianlevesque 2y ago
  Yet another desktop environment https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic
- thesuperbigfrog 2y ago
  A desktop environment that System 76 is making: https://blog.system76.com/post/cosmic-the-road-to-alpha https://blog.system76.com/post/cosmic-the-road-to-alpha
- 9dev 2y ago
  Looks like yet another uncanny clone of MacOS UI
erikpukinskis 2y ago
What disservice?
cl3misch 2y ago
Isn't Cosmic based on Gnome? If yes, at least they did a service to enable the Cosmic DE.
- davet91 2y ago
  The new Cosmic is written from scratch in Rust with the iced GUI library.
  - cl3misch 2y ago
    Good to know. I was going of a sibling comment with a link to their Github repo, in which Cosmic is described as a Gnome skin.
- supercheetah 2y ago
  They take some aesthetic inspiration from Gnome, but Cosmic inherits none of its code since it's being written in Rust.
  - NoGravitas 2y ago
    Oh good, another toolkit that won't have usable bindings for less popular languages, meaning another toolkit that I won't be able/willing to use.
w4rh4wk5 2y ago
Completely agree. The fact that there are still apps where the hamburger menu cannot be used properly without a mouse caused me to switch to KDE. Having certain menus accessible via Alt + Letter shortcuts is an accessibility requirement for me.
pantalaimon 2y ago
The article sounds more like Gnome has learned from their mistakes and makes Gtk4 more general purpose with the Gnome specific bits contained in libadwaita
- BoredPositron 2y ago
  Looks rather like rhyme... https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/LibgnomeMustDie#libgnomeui https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/LibgnomeMustDie#libgnomeui
- Xelbair 2y ago
  >gnome devs >learning from mistakes pick one, and only one. They are the most stubborn bunch in existence.
sitkack 2y ago
The GUI fckshtry on Linux is exactly "The Tyranny of Structurelessness". Linux spent billions copying windows poorly when it could have spent 1/1000th of that being better than Windows by not copying it in the first place.
- anthk 2y ago
  Gnome never tried to copy Windows except for Bonobo/Corba. KDE OTOH tried to combine every GUI into a single place, making it usable to any user. Mac OS? RiscOS? Be? Die-hard Unix with Motif? KDE1 (and more 2 and 3) allowed that into widgets/window decorations and much more. But I prefer stuff like IceWM+XFE if I had to choose a desktop like environment. No desktop icons, the menu has shortcut entries and a subdir navigator allowing you to open anything with either the file-manager or xdg-open. It has a virtual desktop switcher, a task switcher, a systay and a clock.
- talldayo 2y ago
  This is what the cathedral versus the bazaar is all about. You either make everyone angry by rejecting common-sense changes because you insist on being different (GNOME) or make everyone angry by accepting every kitchen-sink patch available until your desktop breaks (KDE). I guess people perceive it as fuckshittery because there's no advertising or marketing team to help assuage the missing features. Comparatively, Microsoft Windows struggles to maintain any less than a dozen GUI frameworks despite being a centrally managed product sold by one company. When you look at it that way, it's kinda miraculous that Linux ends up having it's cake and eating it too.
  - anthk 2y ago
    The C# UI of the week :D
    - LeFantome 2y ago
      This is both a fair comment and a little misleading at the same time. It is more of a communication problem really. For desktop apps, there has been Windows Forms, WPF, WinRT, UWP, and now WinUI. You could even argue that MAUI is the latest. Sounds like a lot! And it is. That said, it is more of a naming and communication problem than a technology one. Things like Qt and GTK have undergone similar or even worse disruption but it does not seem as bad because of the naming. Take WinUi. It is really the exact same GUI API as UWP. Mostly a namespace change. And UWP was just an attempt to bring the WinRT API to more platforms. The Open Source UNO Project allows you to use WinUI cross-platform. And even in MAUI, it uses WinUI on Windows. Really, the C# GUI API for desktop apps has not changed since 2012 ( Windows 8 ). And the core UI concept is XAML with bindings and MVVM. Those were all introduced with WPF way back in 2006. While WinUI and WPF are not the same API, they are not so different from a dev perspective ( use not architecture ). And of course WPF is still supported. In fact, Windows Forms is not only fully supported but gets updates now and then. Windows Forms was released in 2002. You can start a new app in Visual Studio today on the latest .NET that uses the same GUI framework as an app in 2002! That is actually some pretty damn impressive UI framework stability when you think about it. Now detractors may be screaming. What about Silverlight? Or Xamarin Forms, or Blazor? Or Web Forms? Well, I am not going to make this longer going through web frameworks. I hope we can all agree there has been a lot of churn there on every stack. That said, Web Forms, introduced in 2001 are still supported! ( on .NET Full Framework ). And on mobile, Xamarin Forms is just the old name for MAUI. This also uses XAML, so it has a lot in common with everything from WPF to WinUI. Anyway, I wish it was all better too. But it is not as bad as it seems. Mostly, Microsoft just sucks at naming and messaging.
jeroenhd 2y ago
Yet another GUI library won't fix anything. It'll just add one more platform that other desktop environments need to theme to look normal. Gnome was right to take a uniform design, the same way KDE did. Gnome applications look weird on KDE, the same way KDE apps look weird on Gnome, but that's such a non-issue. Every Gnome application has an alternative in almost any other widget style. The "damage" they have done seems to mostly be people who don't like Gnome being agitated by Gnome's success, forcing them to use Gnome applications because their ecosystem of choice doesn't have a native alternative. If Gnome were as bad as some people think, it would've already shrunk to irrelevance to the point the complains would go away.
- BoredPositron 2y ago
  Being responsible for fragmenting the entire desktop environment and causing the creation of forks like Cinnamon, Unity, Mate, Pantheon, Budgie, Deepin, and Cosmic is not the kind of success story I want to be associated with. The amount of development time wasted is appalling besides that I wouldn't consider my human interface guidelines a success when 8 out of the top 10 most downloaded extensions are created to get rid of them making the system bearable for normal users.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    Why would development time be wasted? Most of these forks are "I like the basis, but I want to tweak it a bit". To each their own. I suppose Unity was a bit of a waste now that it's been mostly abandoned for standard Gnome these days. Then again, Canonical has a history of starting forks and alternatives and releasing them early, eventually ending up replaced by competitor projects that learned from their mistakes. The fact KDE's design hasn't inspired much in terms of forks seems like negative signal to me. Very few people who want to implement things their own way seem to be using KDE as a basis. I don't know if that's because KDE is more difficult to work with or if KDE people just aren't the ones that like to experiment with their own vision, but nobody forking the project is not necessarily a good sign. That said, KDE did just finish a complete redesign, with a Gnome-like desktop switcher, a Gnome-style (or rather, macOS-style) dock, altered default behaviour for mouse clicks, touchpad taps, and the way scrollbars work. Perhaps it'll inspire the next generation of tinkerers now that the redesign is out.
crashdancer 2y ago
>bad decisions from the gnome foundation. They can go under for all I care. This won't help anything. GNOME Foundation doesn't really have anything to do with the development of GNOME or GTK. The Foundation is just the financial entity that does fundraising and owns the hosting. Actual development is decided by developers, i.e. the volunteers who show up to maintain it. >Overall I truly believe they did a disservice to the whole Linux Desktop and the community over the last 15 years. Speak for yourself please, personally I've enjoyed GNOME for the last 15 years. There's no need to make these kind of normative statements.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- BoredPositron 2y ago
  I did speak for myself[1], but it's nice that you can have your opinion, while mine is considered void. If the gnome foundation is useless as you described it doesn´t really matter to you if they go under or not right? Your reaction is a repeating pattern when interacting with the gnome dev community, so you're just reinforcing my frustration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [1] I hope... , ...for all I care, Overall I truly believe....
  - crashdancer 2y ago
    If their funding source went under then I imagine they would start another one or try to get picked up by some larger organization like Linux Foundation or SPI. So no I don't think it would be that much of a problem. >but it's nice that you can have your opinion, while mine is considered void. It's perfectly fine to not like GNOME but wishing for them to be destroyed is a hostile and destructive opinion. If you don't want negative reactions then please try to recognize when that happens and just don't say those things. I don't wish that your preferred desktop get destroyed, is it too much to ask for you to stop wishing that upon me? I mean, come on. Of course there is a repeating pattern if you insist on saying nasty things and then you find people always get upset at you. What did you expect would happen?
    - 2y ago

pid-1 2y ago

What's cosmic?

ianlevesque 2y ago
Yet another desktop environment https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic https://github.com/pop-os/cosmic
thesuperbigfrog 2y ago
A desktop environment that System 76 is making: https://blog.system76.com/post/cosmic-the-road-to-alpha https://blog.system76.com/post/cosmic-the-road-to-alpha
9dev 2y ago
Looks like yet another uncanny clone of MacOS UI

erikpukinskis 2y ago

What disservice?

cl3misch 2y ago

Isn't Cosmic based on Gnome? If yes, at least they did a service to enable the Cosmic DE.

davet91 2y ago
The new Cosmic is written from scratch in Rust with the iced GUI library.
- cl3misch 2y ago
  Good to know. I was going of a sibling comment with a link to their Github repo, in which Cosmic is described as a Gnome skin.
supercheetah 2y ago
They take some aesthetic inspiration from Gnome, but Cosmic inherits none of its code since it's being written in Rust.
- NoGravitas 2y ago
  Oh good, another toolkit that won't have usable bindings for less popular languages, meaning another toolkit that I won't be able/willing to use.

w4rh4wk5 2y ago

Completely agree. The fact that there are still apps where the hamburger menu cannot be used properly without a mouse caused me to switch to KDE. Having certain menus accessible via Alt + Letter shortcuts is an accessibility requirement for me.

pantalaimon 2y ago

The article sounds more like Gnome has learned from their mistakes and makes Gtk4 more general purpose with the Gnome specific bits contained in libadwaita

BoredPositron 2y ago
Looks rather like rhyme... https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/LibgnomeMustDie#libgnomeui https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/LibgnomeMustDie#libgnomeui
Xelbair 2y ago
>gnome devs >learning from mistakes pick one, and only one. They are the most stubborn bunch in existence.

sitkack 2y ago

The GUI fckshtry on Linux is exactly "The Tyranny of Structurelessness". Linux spent billions copying windows poorly when it could have spent 1/1000th of that being better than Windows by not copying it in the first place.

anthk 2y ago
Gnome never tried to copy Windows except for Bonobo/Corba. KDE OTOH tried to combine every GUI into a single place, making it usable to any user. Mac OS? RiscOS? Be? Die-hard Unix with Motif? KDE1 (and more 2 and 3) allowed that into widgets/window decorations and much more. But I prefer stuff like IceWM+XFE if I had to choose a desktop like environment. No desktop icons, the menu has shortcut entries and a subdir navigator allowing you to open anything with either the file-manager or xdg-open. It has a virtual desktop switcher, a task switcher, a systay and a clock.
talldayo 2y ago
This is what the cathedral versus the bazaar is all about. You either make everyone angry by rejecting common-sense changes because you insist on being different (GNOME) or make everyone angry by accepting every kitchen-sink patch available until your desktop breaks (KDE). I guess people perceive it as fuckshittery because there's no advertising or marketing team to help assuage the missing features. Comparatively, Microsoft Windows struggles to maintain any less than a dozen GUI frameworks despite being a centrally managed product sold by one company. When you look at it that way, it's kinda miraculous that Linux ends up having it's cake and eating it too.
- anthk 2y ago
  The C# UI of the week :D
  - LeFantome 2y ago
    This is both a fair comment and a little misleading at the same time. It is more of a communication problem really. For desktop apps, there has been Windows Forms, WPF, WinRT, UWP, and now WinUI. You could even argue that MAUI is the latest. Sounds like a lot! And it is. That said, it is more of a naming and communication problem than a technology one. Things like Qt and GTK have undergone similar or even worse disruption but it does not seem as bad because of the naming. Take WinUi. It is really the exact same GUI API as UWP. Mostly a namespace change. And UWP was just an attempt to bring the WinRT API to more platforms. The Open Source UNO Project allows you to use WinUI cross-platform. And even in MAUI, it uses WinUI on Windows. Really, the C# GUI API for desktop apps has not changed since 2012 ( Windows 8 ). And the core UI concept is XAML with bindings and MVVM. Those were all introduced with WPF way back in 2006. While WinUI and WPF are not the same API, they are not so different from a dev perspective ( use not architecture ). And of course WPF is still supported. In fact, Windows Forms is not only fully supported but gets updates now and then. Windows Forms was released in 2002. You can start a new app in Visual Studio today on the latest .NET that uses the same GUI framework as an app in 2002! That is actually some pretty damn impressive UI framework stability when you think about it. Now detractors may be screaming. What about Silverlight? Or Xamarin Forms, or Blazor? Or Web Forms? Well, I am not going to make this longer going through web frameworks. I hope we can all agree there has been a lot of churn there on every stack. That said, Web Forms, introduced in 2001 are still supported! ( on .NET Full Framework ). And on mobile, Xamarin Forms is just the old name for MAUI. This also uses XAML, so it has a lot in common with everything from WPF to WinUI. Anyway, I wish it was all better too. But it is not as bad as it seems. Mostly, Microsoft just sucks at naming and messaging.

jeroenhd 2y ago

Yet another GUI library won't fix anything. It'll just add one more platform that other desktop environments need to theme to look normal. Gnome was right to take a uniform design, the same way KDE did. Gnome applications look weird on KDE, the same way KDE apps look weird on Gnome, but that's such a non-issue. Every Gnome application has an alternative in almost any other widget style. The "damage" they have done seems to mostly be people who don't like Gnome being agitated by Gnome's success, forcing them to use Gnome applications because their ecosystem of choice doesn't have a native alternative. If Gnome were as bad as some people think, it would've already shrunk to irrelevance to the point the complains would go away.

BoredPositron 2y ago
Being responsible for fragmenting the entire desktop environment and causing the creation of forks like Cinnamon, Unity, Mate, Pantheon, Budgie, Deepin, and Cosmic is not the kind of success story I want to be associated with. The amount of development time wasted is appalling besides that I wouldn't consider my human interface guidelines a success when 8 out of the top 10 most downloaded extensions are created to get rid of them making the system bearable for normal users.
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  Why would development time be wasted? Most of these forks are "I like the basis, but I want to tweak it a bit". To each their own. I suppose Unity was a bit of a waste now that it's been mostly abandoned for standard Gnome these days. Then again, Canonical has a history of starting forks and alternatives and releasing them early, eventually ending up replaced by competitor projects that learned from their mistakes. The fact KDE's design hasn't inspired much in terms of forks seems like negative signal to me. Very few people who want to implement things their own way seem to be using KDE as a basis. I don't know if that's because KDE is more difficult to work with or if KDE people just aren't the ones that like to experiment with their own vision, but nobody forking the project is not necessarily a good sign. That said, KDE did just finish a complete redesign, with a Gnome-like desktop switcher, a Gnome-style (or rather, macOS-style) dock, altered default behaviour for mouse clicks, touchpad taps, and the way scrollbars work. Perhaps it'll inspire the next generation of tinkerers now that the redesign is out.

crashdancer 2y ago

>bad decisions from the gnome foundation. They can go under for all I care. This won't help anything. GNOME Foundation doesn't really have anything to do with the development of GNOME or GTK. The Foundation is just the financial entity that does fundraising and owns the hosting. Actual development is decided by developers, i.e. the volunteers who show up to maintain it. >Overall I truly believe they did a disservice to the whole Linux Desktop and the community over the last 15 years. Speak for yourself please, personally I've enjoyed GNOME for the last 15 years. There's no need to make these kind of normative statements.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
BoredPositron 2y ago
I did speak for myself[1], but it's nice that you can have your opinion, while mine is considered void. If the gnome foundation is useless as you described it doesn´t really matter to you if they go under or not right? Your reaction is a repeating pattern when interacting with the gnome dev community, so you're just reinforcing my frustration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [1] I hope... , ...for all I care, Overall I truly believe....
- crashdancer 2y ago
  If their funding source went under then I imagine they would start another one or try to get picked up by some larger organization like Linux Foundation or SPI. So no I don't think it would be that much of a problem. >but it's nice that you can have your opinion, while mine is considered void. It's perfectly fine to not like GNOME but wishing for them to be destroyed is a hostile and destructive opinion. If you don't want negative reactions then please try to recognize when that happens and just don't say those things. I don't wish that your preferred desktop get destroyed, is it too much to ask for you to stop wishing that upon me? I mean, come on. Of course there is a repeating pattern if you insist on saying nasty things and then you find people always get upset at you. What did you expect would happen?
  - 2y ago