4 ms·

Cirkoban: Sokoban meets cellular automata written in Scheme

114 points by davexunit 2y ago

ryukafalz 2y ago
I got thoroughly sucked into this game after the jam, then showed it to a couple friends while over at their house. Nice way to spend an evening :)
jsnell 2y ago
Congrats on finishing and releasing the game. Some feedback: - The game crashed during load on Chrome on Android. - The undo feels really slow. Is is intentional for some kind for artistic effect, or is it related to the tech stack? It feels like a full second, with a really distracting screen fade effect. From the article it seems that the rollback support is one of your core features, but an instant undo is table stakes for this kind of puzzle game. It's not something you should be showcasing by making it slow and have graphical effects. - Games like this should have a restart level button, not just undo. That'd be the case even if the undo was faster. - I think the genre convention is that invalid moves don't advance time, but there's a "wait" input. Having to run at walls to get the timing parity right feels just wrong.
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  Crashes on Chrome on MacOS too. And this has WASM GC and Tailcall support.
  - davexunit 2y ago
    Any error message? Chrome version? I'm surprised none of the players during the jam rating period ran into this.
    - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
      I'm at the smartphone right now, but on the screen I've just seen the x( smilie - on M1, btw. I'll check the dev console and version tomorrow (it's 23:00). But I did play with WASM (GC) myself, so it could be that some experimental flag that I've set triggered the error.
    - ryukafalz 2y ago
      I can actually reproduce this right now in Chromium on arm64 Linux. Chromium 125.0.6422.76, no error messages in the developer console when this happens. Still, interesting that (I think?) all these reports have been from Chrome/ium on arm64 platforms... I wonder if we're triggering some architecture-specific browser bug?
      - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
        To get to the exception, got to "Sources" in the dev-console and check both "Pause on uncaught exceptions" and "Pause on caught exceptions". Reload and start the debugger.
    - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
      OK, what happens is a DOMException with the message "Failed to execute 'querySelectorAll' on 'Element': '\\\f' is not a valid selector." Source is `e.querySelectorAll("\\\f"),` in function of file `lib.min.js`: (d.qsa = K.test(C.querySelectorAll)) && (ce(function(e) { var t; a.appendChild(e).innerHTML = "<a id='" + S + "'></a><select id='" + S + "-\r\\' msallowcapture=''><option selected=''></option></select>", e.querySelectorAll("[msallowcapture^='']").length && v.push("[*^$]=" + M + "*(?:''|\"\")"), e.querySelectorAll("[selected]").length || v.push("\\[" + M + "*(?:value|" + R + ")"), e.querySelectorAll("[id~=" + S + "-]").length || v.push("~="), (t = C.createElement("input")).setAttribute("name", ""), e.appendChild(t), e.querySelectorAll("[name='']").length || v.push("\\[" + M + "*name" + M + "*=" + M + "*(?:''|\"\")"), e.querySelectorAll(":checked").length || v.push(":checked"), e.querySelectorAll("a#" + S + "+*").length || v.push(".#.+[+~]"), e.querySelectorAll("\\\f"), v.push("[\\r\\n\\f]") }), where `e` is the following: <fieldset><a id="sizzle1717482165204"></a><select id="sizzle1717482165204- \" msallowcapture=""><option selected=""></option></select><input name=""></fieldset> Yes, there is a newline (actually a CR) after `id="sizzle1717482165204-` Chrome Version 125.0.6422.141 (arm64) See: https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1
      - davexunit 2y ago
        Interesting! This isn't even our code! It's the code that itch.io adds to serve the game on their site.
    - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
      I'm getting the same exception "Failed to execute 'querySelectorAll' on 'Element': '\ \\f' is not a valid selector." in an Linux Arm64 VM running Chromium Version 125.0.6422.141 - this one does not have any extensions or special flags set AFAIK. See https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1
- davexunit 2y ago
  - Hmm, first I've heard of it crashing. I tested on Chrome and Firefox while developing. Sorry about that! Any error message that you can see? - Curious, this sounds like local machine slowness. Undo is basically instantaneous under the hood, and there's a quarter-second screen wipe effect for fun, but you can mash "undo" as much as you want and it interrupts the animation so you don't have to wait. On my laptop and Android phone I feel no slow down nor have I heard of this from anyone else who played the game. - Fair point. On a keyboard you can just hold the Z key and it zips back pretty quick. Less fun on mobile since I didn't implement repeat on the touch controls. - That may be a convention but it was a deliberate choice not to implement it. I was inspired by Void Stranger which does not have an idle. At least in the levels I designed, I tuned the timing so if you do the optimal solution there's no time spent walking into walls. Thanks for the feedback!
  - jsnell 2y ago
    No message, just a gray background with a pixelated frowny face. Not sure if it's coming from your game or from itch.io. Chrome 125.0.6422.147. (I don't have the phone set up for developer tools, so can't tell if there's something in the developer console. Sorry.) Holding Z down to roll back everything is near instant, so I think it's purely a presentation thing then. Both the screen wipe and the sound effect are very obtrusive. I spot-checked a random puzzle game (Monster's Expedition) with higher than average production values for the genre, and the undo is instant with no transitions or animations, and a sound effect so subtle it took me a while to realize it was even there.
    - paroneayea 2y ago
      Well I'm "glad" it's a presentational issue rather than a performance issue then. Baba is You takes a similar approach in that holding undo takes a while, so we're not completely alone. :) In our case the choice to have undo be very visible, well it may be a bit overdone, but I think it's partly because in some ways this is a showcase of Goblins' time travel feature, and so we wanted to add some juice to the effect to highlight it. It would definitely be better if we had a "level reset" feature, which would make us comparable to Baba is You: holding undo takes a bit if you did a lot of things, but you can also just start over. The other thing I really wished we had added was a level select menu but... all this stuff was accomplished in a week and two days; game jams are intense, there's always things you wish you had gotten done. Now that the jam is over, it might be worth adding some quality of life improvements, but of course now that the jam is over we are back to working on the core tech again instead of the demo. :) But also, hi jsnell, nice to see you again! Glad you got to play the game, and hope you had fun. :)
mcguire 2y ago
I recently decided to try to actually learn to use Scheme, really, in at least a practical sense. I had previously never gotten too far into it. I ran into the System Crafter's Spring Lisp Game Jam livestream (https://www.youtube.com/live/n-4kZhvkK4M?si=YPCSElylTLeSDcCN https://www.youtube.com/live/n-4kZhvkK4M?si=YPCSElylTLeSDcCN) and I'm rather impressed with Hoot, the Scheme -> WASM compiler. Still an early release, but it seemed stable and reasonably featuriferous. On a different note, I also ran across WASM compiles of z3 and minizinc recently. (File under "It's Not How Well The Elephant Dances, But That It Dances At All," I guess.)
- sitkack 2y ago
  Don't leave us hanging, how well does wasm z3 and minizinc work? How many times slower are they?
  - mcguire 2y ago
    I actually don't know; I just saw that they were available, I didn't try them. I assume it would be horrible, though. :-)
- shrubble 2y ago
  I have been following this series of Scheme videos and I think it is "sticking" to my brain this time :-) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm8dSOaqLPHKVPwBkk9UeAB2Lokl1xMJM https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm8dSOaqLPHKVPwBkk9Ue...
constantlm 2y ago
Supaplex vibes also
Quiark 2y ago
Ok to be honest I didn't expect such an onslaught of nerdiness in the first paragraph. I love it.
nanomonkey 2y ago
Sokaban isn't that the game where there is "Something in the Way"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_in_the_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_in_the_Way]? Guess the name checks out.

114 points by davexunit 2y ago

I got thoroughly sucked into this game after the jam, then showed it to a couple friends while over at their house. Nice way to spend an evening :)

jsnell 2y ago

Congrats on finishing and releasing the game. Some feedback: - The game crashed during load on Chrome on Android. - The undo feels really slow. Is is intentional for some kind for artistic effect, or is it related to the tech stack? It feels like a full second, with a really distracting screen fade effect. From the article it seems that the rollback support is one of your core features, but an instant undo is table stakes for this kind of puzzle game. It's not something you should be showcasing by making it slow and have graphical effects. - Games like this should have a restart level button, not just undo. That'd be the case even if the undo was faster. - I think the genre convention is that invalid moves don't advance time, but there's a "wait" input. Having to run at walls to get the timing parity right feels just wrong.

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
Crashes on Chrome on MacOS too. And this has WASM GC and Tailcall support.
- davexunit 2y ago
  Any error message? Chrome version? I'm surprised none of the players during the jam rating period ran into this.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    I'm at the smartphone right now, but on the screen I've just seen the x( smilie - on M1, btw. I'll check the dev console and version tomorrow (it's 23:00). But I did play with WASM (GC) myself, so it could be that some experimental flag that I've set triggered the error.
  - ryukafalz 2y ago
    I can actually reproduce this right now in Chromium on arm64 Linux. Chromium 125.0.6422.76, no error messages in the developer console when this happens. Still, interesting that (I think?) all these reports have been from Chrome/ium on arm64 platforms... I wonder if we're triggering some architecture-specific browser bug?
    - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
      To get to the exception, got to "Sources" in the dev-console and check both "Pause on uncaught exceptions" and "Pause on caught exceptions". Reload and start the debugger.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    OK, what happens is a DOMException with the message "Failed to execute 'querySelectorAll' on 'Element': '\\\f' is not a valid selector." Source is `e.querySelectorAll("\\\f"),` in function of file `lib.min.js`: (d.qsa = K.test(C.querySelectorAll)) && (ce(function(e) { var t; a.appendChild(e).innerHTML = "<a id='" + S + "'></a><select id='" + S + "-\r\\' msallowcapture=''><option selected=''></option></select>", e.querySelectorAll("[msallowcapture^='']").length && v.push("[*^$]=" + M + "*(?:''|\"\")"), e.querySelectorAll("[selected]").length || v.push("\\[" + M + "*(?:value|" + R + ")"), e.querySelectorAll("[id~=" + S + "-]").length || v.push("~="), (t = C.createElement("input")).setAttribute("name", ""), e.appendChild(t), e.querySelectorAll("[name='']").length || v.push("\\[" + M + "*name" + M + "*=" + M + "*(?:''|\"\")"), e.querySelectorAll(":checked").length || v.push(":checked"), e.querySelectorAll("a#" + S + "+*").length || v.push(".#.+[+~]"), e.querySelectorAll("\\\f"), v.push("[\\r\\n\\f]") }), where `e` is the following: <fieldset><a id="sizzle1717482165204"></a><select id="sizzle1717482165204- \" msallowcapture=""><option selected=""></option></select><input name=""></fieldset> Yes, there is a newline (actually a CR) after `id="sizzle1717482165204-` Chrome Version 125.0.6422.141 (arm64) See: https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1
    - davexunit 2y ago
      Interesting! This isn't even our code! It's the code that itch.io adds to serve the game on their site.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    I'm getting the same exception "Failed to execute 'querySelectorAll' on 'Element': '\ \\f' is not a valid selector." in an Linux Arm64 VM running Chromium Version 125.0.6422.141 - this one does not have any extensions or special flags set AFAIK. See https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1 https://gitlab.com/spritely/cirkoban/-/issues/1
davexunit 2y ago
- Hmm, first I've heard of it crashing. I tested on Chrome and Firefox while developing. Sorry about that! Any error message that you can see? - Curious, this sounds like local machine slowness. Undo is basically instantaneous under the hood, and there's a quarter-second screen wipe effect for fun, but you can mash "undo" as much as you want and it interrupts the animation so you don't have to wait. On my laptop and Android phone I feel no slow down nor have I heard of this from anyone else who played the game. - Fair point. On a keyboard you can just hold the Z key and it zips back pretty quick. Less fun on mobile since I didn't implement repeat on the touch controls. - That may be a convention but it was a deliberate choice not to implement it. I was inspired by Void Stranger which does not have an idle. At least in the levels I designed, I tuned the timing so if you do the optimal solution there's no time spent walking into walls. Thanks for the feedback!
- jsnell 2y ago
  No message, just a gray background with a pixelated frowny face. Not sure if it's coming from your game or from itch.io. Chrome 125.0.6422.147. (I don't have the phone set up for developer tools, so can't tell if there's something in the developer console. Sorry.) Holding Z down to roll back everything is near instant, so I think it's purely a presentation thing then. Both the screen wipe and the sound effect are very obtrusive. I spot-checked a random puzzle game (Monster's Expedition) with higher than average production values for the genre, and the undo is instant with no transitions or animations, and a sound effect so subtle it took me a while to realize it was even there.
  - paroneayea 2y ago
    Well I'm "glad" it's a presentational issue rather than a performance issue then. Baba is You takes a similar approach in that holding undo takes a while, so we're not completely alone. :) In our case the choice to have undo be very visible, well it may be a bit overdone, but I think it's partly because in some ways this is a showcase of Goblins' time travel feature, and so we wanted to add some juice to the effect to highlight it. It would definitely be better if we had a "level reset" feature, which would make us comparable to Baba is You: holding undo takes a bit if you did a lot of things, but you can also just start over. The other thing I really wished we had added was a level select menu but... all this stuff was accomplished in a week and two days; game jams are intense, there's always things you wish you had gotten done. Now that the jam is over, it might be worth adding some quality of life improvements, but of course now that the jam is over we are back to working on the core tech again instead of the demo. :) But also, hi jsnell, nice to see you again! Glad you got to play the game, and hope you had fun. :)

mcguire 2y ago

I recently decided to try to actually learn to use Scheme, really, in at least a practical sense. I had previously never gotten too far into it. I ran into the System Crafter's Spring Lisp Game Jam livestream (https://www.youtube.com/live/n-4kZhvkK4M?si=YPCSElylTLeSDcCN https://www.youtube.com/live/n-4kZhvkK4M?si=YPCSElylTLeSDcCN) and I'm rather impressed with Hoot, the Scheme -> WASM compiler. Still an early release, but it seemed stable and reasonably featuriferous. On a different note, I also ran across WASM compiles of z3 and minizinc recently. (File under "It's Not How Well The Elephant Dances, But That It Dances At All," I guess.)

sitkack 2y ago
Don't leave us hanging, how well does wasm z3 and minizinc work? How many times slower are they?
- mcguire 2y ago
  I actually don't know; I just saw that they were available, I didn't try them. I assume it would be horrible, though. :-)
shrubble 2y ago
I have been following this series of Scheme videos and I think it is "sticking" to my brain this time :-) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm8dSOaqLPHKVPwBkk9UeAB2Lokl1xMJM https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm8dSOaqLPHKVPwBkk9Ue...

constantlm 2y ago

Supaplex vibes also

Quiark 2y ago

Ok to be honest I didn't expect such an onslaught of nerdiness in the first paragraph. I love it.

nanomonkey 2y ago

Sokaban isn't that the game where there is "Something in the Way"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_in_the_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Something_in_the_Way]? Guess the name checks out.