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On a positive note, the backlash will inspire a new generation to consign fossils to the dustbin of history, https://youtube.com/watch?v=-wntX-a3jSY https://you

On a positive note, the backlash will inspire a new generation to consign fossils to the dustbin of history, https://youtube.com/watch?v=-wntX-a3jSY https://youtube.com/watch?v=-wntX-a3jSY The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

anankaie 2y ago
One can only hope, though given how much more authoritarian everyone (in the US, at least) has gotten, I am not holding out much hope. Good luck fighting this; I mean that sincerely.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Every action has an opposite reaction. Thanks to Apple's refusal to cede even a little bit of central control over their ecosystem, to enable decentralized innovation, members of their star silicon design team departed to start afresh with Nuvia. Now we have Windows Arm PCs with UEFI and upstream Linux support, "close enough" to Apple Silicon perf/watt. PC OEM price competition and enterprise volume buys will yield affordable Arm laptops in a few years. Framework has proven that laptops can be modular. Did they inspire Lenovo to make a more repairable Thinkpad? If Framework releases a modular Arm laptop based on Qualcomm/Mediatek/Nvidia, watch out. On the software front, the sold-out "Local First" conference recently wrapped in Berlin, https://www.localfirstconf.com/ https://www.localfirstconf.com/. If HTTP can be extended to support synchronization, it could dramatically lower the cost of cooperative infrastructure, including offline (think Cuba sneakernet) sync, https://stateb.us/what https://stateb.us/what & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480016, tearing down big walls of tech and lobbyists. Some conflicts are won by making them irrelevant.
- squigz 2y ago
  Ignoring the fact that TFA is about the EU and not the US, can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Everyone is more authoritarian?
  - Scarblac 2y ago
    Authoritarian politics is way more popular than, say, around the turn of the century.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    The MAGA movement in the USA (~30%) has taken on a dangerous cult-like and fascist tendencies and ignore critical thinking, democracy, and facts, and instead glom onto a cult of personality. It’s not enough to believe 95% of what they (the cult) believe, it’s 100% or you will be excommunicated. It’s pretty scary times over here actually
    - squigz 2y ago
      ~30% of the US population is into the 'MAGA movement'? Got a source on that?
      - kelnos 2y ago
        Even if that's not the case, in many political races in the US, MAGA politics is the only option for conservative voters, even those who wouldn't consider themselves a part of the MAGA movement. Of course, it's pretty messed up that the rationale to continue voting Republican is apparently, "well, I don't like Trump and dictators and the erosion of democratic values, but... man, that Biden guy annoys me".
- kypro 2y ago
  It's even worse in Europe from what I can tell. The shift took me by surprise, but a decade or so a go I noticed people around me were becoming increasingly authoritarian and pro-surveillance. Today I'm in a very clear minority today and I think for now that trend will only continue.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    > authoritarian and pro-surveillance Whether by accident or design, the "smartphone" (package of sensors) manufacturing revolution made surveillance cheap and pervasive. Those atop a wealthy hill of deregulated inequality may be attracted to a mirage of tech-enabled control, powered by harvested signals and McKinsey dashboards. But all observations affect the observer, so observe.. wisely.
ADeerAppeared 2y ago
This is a naive view of the matter. These proposals keep returning because there are legitimate concerns that are being left unadressed by industry self-regulation. When nobody wants to have a conversation about good measures, politicians are going to try again, even the new ones. It is sincerely horrifying what the reckless deployment of generative AI is doing in this space. And it's all dismissed as "Well you can't stop math anyway so we're not going to do anything" and (implicitly) "The ends justify the means, sacrificing a few children is worth it to get AGI". These are terrible optics. If tech does not hold itself accountable, privacy is going to die sooner or later. The politicians need only win once.
- walterbell 2y ago
  > privacy is going to die sooner or later. The politicians need only win once. If privacy dies, it ends creativity, civil society and funding for politicians. That scenario would be painful, but self-correcting. On the other side, something new can be born. Note: "privacy" is not a car that can be stolen once. Like freedom, it is infinitely divisible, and even those who have lost 99% will keep fighting for what little remains. There are countless examples in history, independent of temporal technology minutiae.
  - ADeerAppeared 2y ago
    > Note: "privacy" is not a car that can be stolen once. I'm not talking about "all of privacy" being lost in one go, I had assumed this would be obvious to all readers. I'm talking about the specific matter at hand; Message scanning, with the point of how this failure mode poses a threat for further and further infringements of privacy down the line. > If privacy dies, it ends creativity, civil society and funding for politicians. Cute poetry, but the aftermath of 9/11 clearly shows otherwise. Consider for a moment how even these "anti-terrorism" measures are seeing shockingly little pushback. Despite al-Qaeda being an ocean and continent away. You're a fool if you think any politician would risk their career to revoke message scanning once implemented. The attack-ads write themselves, "[POLITICIAN] wants to let pedophiles sextort your children".
- robertlagrant 2y ago
Moldoteck 2y ago
Or we could end up like a variation of Putin's Russia where power screws were tightened gradually till putin got absolute power
- kelnos 2y ago
  The thing that encourages me a bit about the US's situation here is that we're still decentralized enough. I'm not a "state's rights" guy by any means, but it's significant that we have state-run election systems. It's much harder for an authoritarian executive to run sham elections here. But still, I feel like this property only slows down the march toward authoritarianism. It won't stop it.
Hizonner 2y ago
> the backlash will inspire a new generation to consign fossils to the dustbin of history Most of what I've seen of "a new generation" leads me that, on average, they're disturbingly willing to comply with any kind of authority on any kind of pretext. And some of the rebellious outliers are kind of Naz-ish. Not wildly different from any previous age groups, of course, but definitely not some giant anti-authoritarian wave. ... and people of any age will only reliably "backlash" if they're actually inconvenienced. Most people will just accept the spying and go back to sharing stupid memes. Until it's too late, anyhow.
- walterbell 2y ago
  > some giant anti-authoritarian wave Fortunately for human civilization, our options are not limited to "authoritarian" and "anti-authoritarian". Societal change may conclude with mass movement of followers, but it begins with individuals who create new choices and incentives.

anankaie 2y ago

One can only hope, though given how much more authoritarian everyone (in the US, at least) has gotten, I am not holding out much hope. Good luck fighting this; I mean that sincerely.

walterbell 2y ago
Every action has an opposite reaction. Thanks to Apple's refusal to cede even a little bit of central control over their ecosystem, to enable decentralized innovation, members of their star silicon design team departed to start afresh with Nuvia. Now we have Windows Arm PCs with UEFI and upstream Linux support, "close enough" to Apple Silicon perf/watt. PC OEM price competition and enterprise volume buys will yield affordable Arm laptops in a few years. Framework has proven that laptops can be modular. Did they inspire Lenovo to make a more repairable Thinkpad? If Framework releases a modular Arm laptop based on Qualcomm/Mediatek/Nvidia, watch out. On the software front, the sold-out "Local First" conference recently wrapped in Berlin, https://www.localfirstconf.com/ https://www.localfirstconf.com/. If HTTP can be extended to support synchronization, it could dramatically lower the cost of cooperative infrastructure, including offline (think Cuba sneakernet) sync, https://stateb.us/what https://stateb.us/what & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480016, tearing down big walls of tech and lobbyists. Some conflicts are won by making them irrelevant.
squigz 2y ago
Ignoring the fact that TFA is about the EU and not the US, can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Everyone is more authoritarian?
- Scarblac 2y ago
  Authoritarian politics is way more popular than, say, around the turn of the century.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  The MAGA movement in the USA (~30%) has taken on a dangerous cult-like and fascist tendencies and ignore critical thinking, democracy, and facts, and instead glom onto a cult of personality. It’s not enough to believe 95% of what they (the cult) believe, it’s 100% or you will be excommunicated. It’s pretty scary times over here actually
  - squigz 2y ago
    ~30% of the US population is into the 'MAGA movement'? Got a source on that?
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Even if that's not the case, in many political races in the US, MAGA politics is the only option for conservative voters, even those who wouldn't consider themselves a part of the MAGA movement. Of course, it's pretty messed up that the rationale to continue voting Republican is apparently, "well, I don't like Trump and dictators and the erosion of democratic values, but... man, that Biden guy annoys me".
kypro 2y ago
It's even worse in Europe from what I can tell. The shift took me by surprise, but a decade or so a go I noticed people around me were becoming increasingly authoritarian and pro-surveillance. Today I'm in a very clear minority today and I think for now that trend will only continue.
- walterbell 2y ago
  > authoritarian and pro-surveillance Whether by accident or design, the "smartphone" (package of sensors) manufacturing revolution made surveillance cheap and pervasive. Those atop a wealthy hill of deregulated inequality may be attracted to a mirage of tech-enabled control, powered by harvested signals and McKinsey dashboards. But all observations affect the observer, so observe.. wisely.

ADeerAppeared 2y ago

This is a naive view of the matter. These proposals keep returning because there are legitimate concerns that are being left unadressed by industry self-regulation. When nobody wants to have a conversation about good measures, politicians are going to try again, even the new ones. It is sincerely horrifying what the reckless deployment of generative AI is doing in this space. And it's all dismissed as "Well you can't stop math anyway so we're not going to do anything" and (implicitly) "The ends justify the means, sacrificing a few children is worth it to get AGI". These are terrible optics. If tech does not hold itself accountable, privacy is going to die sooner or later. The politicians need only win once.

walterbell 2y ago
> privacy is going to die sooner or later. The politicians need only win once. If privacy dies, it ends creativity, civil society and funding for politicians. That scenario would be painful, but self-correcting. On the other side, something new can be born. Note: "privacy" is not a car that can be stolen once. Like freedom, it is infinitely divisible, and even those who have lost 99% will keep fighting for what little remains. There are countless examples in history, independent of temporal technology minutiae.
- ADeerAppeared 2y ago
  > Note: "privacy" is not a car that can be stolen once. I'm not talking about "all of privacy" being lost in one go, I had assumed this would be obvious to all readers. I'm talking about the specific matter at hand; Message scanning, with the point of how this failure mode poses a threat for further and further infringements of privacy down the line. > If privacy dies, it ends creativity, civil society and funding for politicians. Cute poetry, but the aftermath of 9/11 clearly shows otherwise. Consider for a moment how even these "anti-terrorism" measures are seeing shockingly little pushback. Despite al-Qaeda being an ocean and continent away. You're a fool if you think any politician would risk their career to revoke message scanning once implemented. The attack-ads write themselves, "[POLITICIAN] wants to let pedophiles sextort your children".
robertlagrant 2y ago

Moldoteck 2y ago

Or we could end up like a variation of Putin's Russia where power screws were tightened gradually till putin got absolute power

kelnos 2y ago
The thing that encourages me a bit about the US's situation here is that we're still decentralized enough. I'm not a "state's rights" guy by any means, but it's significant that we have state-run election systems. It's much harder for an authoritarian executive to run sham elections here. But still, I feel like this property only slows down the march toward authoritarianism. It won't stop it.

Hizonner 2y ago

> the backlash will inspire a new generation to consign fossils to the dustbin of history Most of what I've seen of "a new generation" leads me that, on average, they're disturbingly willing to comply with any kind of authority on any kind of pretext. And some of the rebellious outliers are kind of Naz-ish. Not wildly different from any previous age groups, of course, but definitely not some giant anti-authoritarian wave. ... and people of any age will only reliably "backlash" if they're actually inconvenienced. Most people will just accept the spying and go back to sharing stupid memes. Until it's too late, anyhow.

walterbell 2y ago
> some giant anti-authoritarian wave Fortunately for human civilization, our options are not limited to "authoritarian" and "anti-authoritarian". Societal change may conclude with mass movement of followers, but it begins with individuals who create new choices and incentives.