8 ms·

As a good friend of mine often says: We work in a field of people who envision themselves as artists, when all that is wanted are painters.

deanrtaylor 2y ago
This articulates something I've been thinking about quite a lot recently; quite nicely.
- refulgentis 2y ago
  Tell us more! :)
gradschoolfail 2y ago
Some of the best are in fact also painters. https://paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html https://paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html
tempie2024 2y ago
So we should put a bug in the room and if the painter whistles a tune while working, sanction them for slacking off?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
icelancer 2y ago
No one wants to be a "programmer." They'd rather be called "engineers." With none of the licensure, mandatory education, and so forth. But the world needs programmers and technicians for most of the work we have to do. I do comparably little "engineering" and the little I have done that qualifies for such a statement I recall. Majority of the work is programming and technician work. Nothing wrong with that.
- just-tom 2y ago
  Actually I call myself a developer. I'm not that good of a programmer, but quite resourceful as a developer.
  - erhaetherth 2y ago
    I've come to understand the difference between programmer and software engineer, but what's the difference between (software) developer and programmer?
    - surfingdino 2y ago
      Developers build software whereas programmers merely flick the switches on an Altair 8800 /s
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - just-tom 2y ago
      Maybe it's only in my head, but for me, programmers work 99% of the time with code, while developers also spin up servers, cicd pipelines, domain dns stuff, and more stuff that are not strictly source code.
  - stef25 2y ago
    Only reason I sometimes say I'm a programmer is because developer sounds like I work for an NGO
    - shafyy 2y ago
      Yeah, developer is much more ambiguous. Could also be a real estate developer, or a business developer (fancy word for "sales").
- ozim 2y ago
  I call myself an engineer- but the way I understand it is that I still have to know when to use a hammer like simply copy paste code and not some complex solution.
  - sevnin 2y ago
    The problem in software is that very frequently you dont have a real hammer. You have hundred amalgamations of swiss army knives that do everything. Like what is the hammer when you want to add some nice dynamic content to a website? Is it just javascript or maybe react?, Angular?, Svelte? Or another example: you want to code a command line app, what language is a hammer here?: C++?, Go?, Bash?, Python? This analogy falls apart the moment you apply it to anything in software.
    - psychoslave 2y ago
      Well, the engineer first move should be "do we really need this dynamic to achieve the global goal, or can we do without"? Most of the time however stakeholders will prefer that someone unleash the last technical shiny tech stack (that no one master in the team and that is about to be dethroned by the even newest thing) to deliver a pixel perfect reproduction of the mock-up rather than question the relevance of the proposal.
- rcbdev 2y ago
  Maybe not in the U.S. but in Europe, Software Engineering is often a field of engineering where one can get licensed. i.e. in Austria many IT techs and devs are called (at the doctor's office or in formal settings) "Mr. Engineer" ("Herr Ingenieur") if they fulfill some formal criteria and get licensed. A further qualification is becoming a federally certified civil technician for IT (Ziviltechniker or Ingenieurskonsulent) - also something that public sector contracts sometimes mandate. Software around the world is engineered - it just often isn't in California.
  - dotinvoke 2y ago
    I live in a country where software engineers often have engineering degrees. What that means in practice is that they study math and physics for the first 2-3 years of their degree, instead of computer science or software engineering. Does that make them build better systems than Californian devs? Based on company revenues and salaries, I’d say no.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > Does that make them build better systems than Californian devs? Based on company revenues and salaries, I’d say no. Majority of silicon valley devs are immigrants though, they are good because they are sourced and filtered from all over the world not thanks to American education.
      - l33t7332273 2y ago
        Many of the immigrant devs attended American Education like Stanford, Georgia tech, MIT, CMU, one of the UC’s, etc.
  - lyu07282 2y ago
    Yet almost every major piece of software or idea started in California and almost nothing noteworthy in the space started in Austria. I think that tells us something about the real value of a piece of paper granting you the right to call yourself an "engineer".
- whstl 2y ago
  But other branches of engineering are also about doing a lot of repetitive work, exactly what "programmers" do. Engineers shouldn't compromise on things like safety, security, legislation, budget, properly documenting, properly communicating with others, etc. Same as anyone working professionally with code should, no matter the title. But there's nothing that says that engineers should only be doing groundbreaking or interesting work. The "artist" analogy works much better. EDIT: Perhaps the main difference is what psychoslave mentions below – engineers are expected to question the relevance and necessity of requirements, and work together with business, rather than just doing as asked.
- oscare 2y ago
  Lately I've come to understand the term engineer somewhat differently from this excellent video from the 'engineerguy': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU He defines the Engineering Method as: 'Solving problems using rules of thumb that cause the best change in a poorly understood situation using available resources.' In that sense a Software Engineer would not necessary need to know all the complexities of the complete system to make something work as specified. And I would equate a 'Programmer' more like the Scientist or Mathematician in this case. Funny how there are so many different ways to look at a title.
- tracker1 2y ago
  I prefer the term "developer". In most cases, software is a craft discipline, not engineering.
- audiodude 2y ago
  YES! Couldn't agree more. Although my title has always been Software Engineer, I never introduce myself that way (I prefer Software Developer or just Programmer, or I say "I write code at XYZ"). I went to an engineering school. Actual engineers design bridges and machines and biochemical whatnot, and of course require licensing. I push code around. I even try to subvert company culture and say things like "Well developers will need to update that API" instead of "engineers".
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  I think I might actually like to do more actual engineering, using models and sound notations and planning, thinking about eventualities, not being told not to by management guys, trying to get it right the first time, instead of always being told "later", because otherwise people will suffer (or die) and all that. I would perhaps even like there to be a license, because then we would maybe get way fewer people interfering with a technically sound decision process. As it is right now, every manager dude thinks they know better what to build than the actual programmers/engineers, even if the programmers/engineers work on the product for years already and have gathered experiences the frequently rotated managers lack. It is always soooo convenient for the manager types to defer good enginnering endlessly, so that ultimately it never happens and shitty products are made.
jhanschoo 2y ago
It's the same in the creative industry, no? Teens fall into it practicing the techniques of artistic self-expression wanting to make a career out of showing the world themselves with expressive finesse, but the alienable value in these skills lie in using them to create a consistent brand identity etc.
itronitron 2y ago
To extend that further, most professional painters think of themselves as sanders.
- lukas099 2y ago
  Why?
  - throwup238 2y ago
    It’s usually more than 80% of the work. Painting something is really fast with modern sprayers but sanding off the old layer is still a lot of elbow grease, even when you have sand blasters.
    - boznz 2y ago
      A Lot like development then, there is a lot of work before you write your first line of code, however like the original post you can do a simple sand down, no undercoat and have something that lasts a dozen years if you keep on top of it.

deanrtaylor 2y ago

This articulates something I've been thinking about quite a lot recently; quite nicely.

refulgentis 2y ago
Tell us more! :)

gradschoolfail 2y ago

Some of the best are in fact also painters. https://paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html https://paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html

tempie2024 2y ago

So we should put a bug in the room and if the painter whistles a tune while working, sanction them for slacking off?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

icelancer 2y ago

No one wants to be a "programmer." They'd rather be called "engineers." With none of the licensure, mandatory education, and so forth. But the world needs programmers and technicians for most of the work we have to do. I do comparably little "engineering" and the little I have done that qualifies for such a statement I recall. Majority of the work is programming and technician work. Nothing wrong with that.

just-tom 2y ago
Actually I call myself a developer. I'm not that good of a programmer, but quite resourceful as a developer.
- erhaetherth 2y ago
  I've come to understand the difference between programmer and software engineer, but what's the difference between (software) developer and programmer?
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    Developers build software whereas programmers merely flick the switches on an Altair 8800 /s
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - just-tom 2y ago
    Maybe it's only in my head, but for me, programmers work 99% of the time with code, while developers also spin up servers, cicd pipelines, domain dns stuff, and more stuff that are not strictly source code.
- stef25 2y ago
  Only reason I sometimes say I'm a programmer is because developer sounds like I work for an NGO
  - shafyy 2y ago
    Yeah, developer is much more ambiguous. Could also be a real estate developer, or a business developer (fancy word for "sales").
ozim 2y ago
I call myself an engineer- but the way I understand it is that I still have to know when to use a hammer like simply copy paste code and not some complex solution.
- sevnin 2y ago
  The problem in software is that very frequently you dont have a real hammer. You have hundred amalgamations of swiss army knives that do everything. Like what is the hammer when you want to add some nice dynamic content to a website? Is it just javascript or maybe react?, Angular?, Svelte? Or another example: you want to code a command line app, what language is a hammer here?: C++?, Go?, Bash?, Python? This analogy falls apart the moment you apply it to anything in software.
  - psychoslave 2y ago
    Well, the engineer first move should be "do we really need this dynamic to achieve the global goal, or can we do without"? Most of the time however stakeholders will prefer that someone unleash the last technical shiny tech stack (that no one master in the team and that is about to be dethroned by the even newest thing) to deliver a pixel perfect reproduction of the mock-up rather than question the relevance of the proposal.
rcbdev 2y ago
Maybe not in the U.S. but in Europe, Software Engineering is often a field of engineering where one can get licensed. i.e. in Austria many IT techs and devs are called (at the doctor's office or in formal settings) "Mr. Engineer" ("Herr Ingenieur") if they fulfill some formal criteria and get licensed. A further qualification is becoming a federally certified civil technician for IT (Ziviltechniker or Ingenieurskonsulent) - also something that public sector contracts sometimes mandate. Software around the world is engineered - it just often isn't in California.
- dotinvoke 2y ago
  I live in a country where software engineers often have engineering degrees. What that means in practice is that they study math and physics for the first 2-3 years of their degree, instead of computer science or software engineering. Does that make them build better systems than Californian devs? Based on company revenues and salaries, I’d say no.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > Does that make them build better systems than Californian devs? Based on company revenues and salaries, I’d say no. Majority of silicon valley devs are immigrants though, they are good because they are sourced and filtered from all over the world not thanks to American education.
    - l33t7332273 2y ago
      Many of the immigrant devs attended American Education like Stanford, Georgia tech, MIT, CMU, one of the UC’s, etc.
- lyu07282 2y ago
  Yet almost every major piece of software or idea started in California and almost nothing noteworthy in the space started in Austria. I think that tells us something about the real value of a piece of paper granting you the right to call yourself an "engineer".
whstl 2y ago
But other branches of engineering are also about doing a lot of repetitive work, exactly what "programmers" do. Engineers shouldn't compromise on things like safety, security, legislation, budget, properly documenting, properly communicating with others, etc. Same as anyone working professionally with code should, no matter the title. But there's nothing that says that engineers should only be doing groundbreaking or interesting work. The "artist" analogy works much better. EDIT: Perhaps the main difference is what psychoslave mentions below – engineers are expected to question the relevance and necessity of requirements, and work together with business, rather than just doing as asked.
oscare 2y ago
Lately I've come to understand the term engineer somewhat differently from this excellent video from the 'engineerguy': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU He defines the Engineering Method as: 'Solving problems using rules of thumb that cause the best change in a poorly understood situation using available resources.' In that sense a Software Engineer would not necessary need to know all the complexities of the complete system to make something work as specified. And I would equate a 'Programmer' more like the Scientist or Mathematician in this case. Funny how there are so many different ways to look at a title.
tracker1 2y ago
I prefer the term "developer". In most cases, software is a craft discipline, not engineering.
audiodude 2y ago
YES! Couldn't agree more. Although my title has always been Software Engineer, I never introduce myself that way (I prefer Software Developer or just Programmer, or I say "I write code at XYZ"). I went to an engineering school. Actual engineers design bridges and machines and biochemical whatnot, and of course require licensing. I push code around. I even try to subvert company culture and say things like "Well developers will need to update that API" instead of "engineers".
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
zelphirkalt 2y ago
I think I might actually like to do more actual engineering, using models and sound notations and planning, thinking about eventualities, not being told not to by management guys, trying to get it right the first time, instead of always being told "later", because otherwise people will suffer (or die) and all that. I would perhaps even like there to be a license, because then we would maybe get way fewer people interfering with a technically sound decision process. As it is right now, every manager dude thinks they know better what to build than the actual programmers/engineers, even if the programmers/engineers work on the product for years already and have gathered experiences the frequently rotated managers lack. It is always soooo convenient for the manager types to defer good enginnering endlessly, so that ultimately it never happens and shitty products are made.

jhanschoo 2y ago

It's the same in the creative industry, no? Teens fall into it practicing the techniques of artistic self-expression wanting to make a career out of showing the world themselves with expressive finesse, but the alienable value in these skills lie in using them to create a consistent brand identity etc.

itronitron 2y ago

To extend that further, most professional painters think of themselves as sanders.

lukas099 2y ago
Why?
- throwup238 2y ago
  It’s usually more than 80% of the work. Painting something is really fast with modern sprayers but sanding off the old layer is still a lot of elbow grease, even when you have sand blasters.
  - boznz 2y ago
    A Lot like development then, there is a lot of work before you write your first line of code, however like the original post you can do a simple sand down, no undercoat and have something that lasts a dozen years if you keep on top of it.