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The restaurant owners in America should pay their staff a liveable wage, like restaurant owners do in every other country. Tips not required.

by ssss11 2y ago

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
I agree. But I don’t think you’ve worked at restaurants in so many countries to make that statement even in general, let alone universally. Restaurant workers are underpaid in most countries, especially in Asia. Servers in Beijing used to sleep on the floor of their restaurants since their wages could barely afford to actually rent anything in the city.
adastra22 2y ago
Restaurant owners have tried no-tip policy. They can’t get good servers because they’d rather work for tips. I know servers who make six figures from tips alone…
- demosthanos 2y ago
  This is known as a market failure and it's what the government is for. It will likely never happen, but we need legislation to end tipping in an entire market all at once.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    You can't really prevent one person (a customer) from handing another person (the server) some money as recognition of good service, or because he thinks the server is cute, or because it makes him feel good, or whatever.
    - demosthanos 2y ago
      But you can remove the laws that allow restaurants to pay servers less than minimum wage and that thereby make tipping effectively mandatory.
      - RestlessMind 2y ago
        California has a very high mandatory minimum compared to Federal minimum wage. Yet, tipping exists and it seems servers prefer that over a higher wage.
    - slau 2y ago
      Why do you believe giving money to a stranger for the only reason of being sexually attracted to them is acceptable behaviour?
      - Gud 2y ago
        Why wouldn’t it be?
      - RestlessMind 2y ago
        Because that's how we have evolved as a species. Being attractive as well as yielding to beauty.
- nkurz 2y ago
  I've always presumed that a large part of this is tax evasion. Cash tips are legally required to be reported as income, but I'd guessing that they are very rarely reported in full. The increase in salary would have to be quite a bit higher than the amount lost in tips to make up the difference. I'm base my guess on my personal experience, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have numbers that would prove or disprove this?
8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
CA already mandates a minimum of $20/h to restaurant workers, yet that hasn't stopped every restaurant from shaming people into tipping.
wenc 2y ago
The problem is America is that tipping has become a norm, and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. You have 3 parties with non-aligned goals. Staff will optimize for earnings, so they actually prefer tips. Many oppose a minimum livable wage (keyword being "minimum", which often ends up being much lower than tipped wages). Customers will optimize for cost while having the peace of mind that workers are getting paid a living wage, so they prefer restaurant owners pay their staff a minimum livable wage, but not any higher than that so they can enjoy meals at a reasonable cost. Restaurant owners are trying to optimize their cost, so they want to minimize cost of operations, which means paying their workers as little as legally required, and have the customer cover the rest by tipping (which is discretionary and governed by norms). The equilibrium -- at least in America -- is found in a reasonable level of tipping.
RestlessMind 2y ago
Because staff prefers tips over a liveable wage. Perhaps, other countries can experiment with America's way and let the staff decide for itself? For example - "The restaurant industry in America is unique, and survey data proves that both tipped workers and the public prefer it as well. Restaurant workers often look at ourselves as commission-based sales people..." (https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq) "The switch to a no-tip, 25%-surcharge model at world-famous Zuni Cafe has done wonders for the wages of kitchen staff. But very few of the veteran servers remain who worked at the restaurant when the tips were taken away, and those who work there now are still complaining." (https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-the-restaurant-due-to-no-tipping-policy-policy-may-still-be-revised/ https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-th...)

The restaurant owners in America should pay their staff a liveable wage, like restaurant owners do in every other country. Tips not required.

by ssss11 2y ago

The restaurant owners in America should pay their staff a liveable wage, like restaurant owners do in every other country. Tips not required.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

I agree. But I don’t think you’ve worked at restaurants in so many countries to make that statement even in general, let alone universally. Restaurant workers are underpaid in most countries, especially in Asia. Servers in Beijing used to sleep on the floor of their restaurants since their wages could barely afford to actually rent anything in the city.

adastra22 2y ago

Restaurant owners have tried no-tip policy. They can’t get good servers because they’d rather work for tips. I know servers who make six figures from tips alone…

demosthanos 2y ago
This is known as a market failure and it's what the government is for. It will likely never happen, but we need legislation to end tipping in an entire market all at once.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  You can't really prevent one person (a customer) from handing another person (the server) some money as recognition of good service, or because he thinks the server is cute, or because it makes him feel good, or whatever.
  - demosthanos 2y ago
    But you can remove the laws that allow restaurants to pay servers less than minimum wage and that thereby make tipping effectively mandatory.
    - RestlessMind 2y ago
      California has a very high mandatory minimum compared to Federal minimum wage. Yet, tipping exists and it seems servers prefer that over a higher wage.
  - slau 2y ago
    Why do you believe giving money to a stranger for the only reason of being sexually attracted to them is acceptable behaviour?
    - Gud 2y ago
      Why wouldn’t it be?
    - RestlessMind 2y ago
      Because that's how we have evolved as a species. Being attractive as well as yielding to beauty.
nkurz 2y ago
I've always presumed that a large part of this is tax evasion. Cash tips are legally required to be reported as income, but I'd guessing that they are very rarely reported in full. The increase in salary would have to be quite a bit higher than the amount lost in tips to make up the difference. I'm base my guess on my personal experience, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have numbers that would prove or disprove this?

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago

CA already mandates a minimum of $20/h to restaurant workers, yet that hasn't stopped every restaurant from shaming people into tipping.

wenc 2y ago

The problem is America is that tipping has become a norm, and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. You have 3 parties with non-aligned goals. Staff will optimize for earnings, so they actually prefer tips. Many oppose a minimum livable wage (keyword being "minimum", which often ends up being much lower than tipped wages). Customers will optimize for cost while having the peace of mind that workers are getting paid a living wage, so they prefer restaurant owners pay their staff a minimum livable wage, but not any higher than that so they can enjoy meals at a reasonable cost. Restaurant owners are trying to optimize their cost, so they want to minimize cost of operations, which means paying their workers as little as legally required, and have the customer cover the rest by tipping (which is discretionary and governed by norms). The equilibrium -- at least in America -- is found in a reasonable level of tipping.

RestlessMind 2y ago

Because staff prefers tips over a liveable wage. Perhaps, other countries can experiment with America's way and let the staff decide for itself? For example - "The restaurant industry in America is unique, and survey data proves that both tipped workers and the public prefer it as well. Restaurant workers often look at ourselves as commission-based sales people..." (https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq https://www.restaurantworkersofamerica.org/faq) "The switch to a no-tip, 25%-surcharge model at world-famous Zuni Cafe has done wonders for the wages of kitchen staff. But very few of the veteran servers remain who worked at the restaurant when the tips were taken away, and those who work there now are still complaining." (https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-the-restaurant-due-to-no-tipping-policy-policy-may-still-be-revised/ https://sfist.com/2022/07/28/90-of-zuni-servers-have-left-th...)