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Apart from the engines (specially high performance and the diesel ones - forgetting the emissions scandal), and brand German cars do not have any real competiti

Apart from the engines (specially high performance and the diesel ones - forgetting the emissions scandal), and brand German cars do not have any real competitive edge. If you are willing to pay the price tag you can find craftsmanship, driving dynamics, safety, reliability elsewhere. In an EV world where software and electronic quirks are the main demand drivers (ev power trains cannot offer differentiation), Chinese are very well positioned to take over the lead.

lucianbr 2y ago
So what would I get from China instead of a BMW M4 or Audi S5? That would be on par for craftsmanship, dynamics, safety, reliability, price. I'm quite curious.
- whatever1 2y ago
  For ICE? There is no Chinese competition, but Kia stinger and Lexus RC are direct competition. In an EV world even the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can smoke the M4 or the S5. Take it for a test drive you will be shocked. For Chinese both BYD and Xiaomi have offerings in the space. (Btw I own an RS5 and would never trade it for an soul-less ev, but there are very few of us who care)
- Wheaties466 2y ago
  BYD Han EV, Zeekr 001, NIO ET7, XPeng P7, BYD Seal
  - servus45678981 2y ago
    Those byds are really bad, just like the Xiaomi ones. They are falling apart and disturbing the public safety; one of the panels almost hit a passenger
nostrebored 2y ago
But what world is that? The one where we magically achieve the energy abundance necessary to support EVs? It’s unlikely, and as EV adoption winds up consuming more and more of the grid capacity, expect the TCO of these cars to skyrocket.
- whatever1 2y ago
  I mean who says that gas prices will not 10x in the next 20 years ? Crude oil is a scarce resource and it has become very inefficient to extract. Which is why even fracking is nowadays viable (at $100/barrel)
  - nostrebored 2y ago
    If you believe that, buy some futures. I'll put my money in a savings account. Let's see who does better. Supply of oil is artificially constrained but completely necessary for the QoL that we're used to. Electricity prices for charging will much more than 10x to support a significant fraction of the population using EVs.
    - whatever1 2y ago
      If you sell me the said futures I will happily buy because nobody else sells. Hint to not go bankrupt before you decide to sell me, check the average current costs per barrel for the giants like xom and cvx. This is the price floor.
      - nostrebored 2y ago
        You can absolutely buy crude oil futures. Even as an individual investor.
_yb2s 2y ago
I agree with the reliability, but haven't seen that in the rest of what you mention. I'm definitely a car snob, and have driven high end luxury and sports cars from the Japanese and American companies, and they just don't have the driving experience, attention to detail, etc. of say, even a base model Porsche. It's tiny details most people probably don't notice- keeping the wind noise down with the windows and/or convertible top down, using corrosion resistant fasteners and coatings everywhere, perfectly tuning the pedal responsiveness and steering feel, balancing the weight, getting the gear ratios and/or shifting programs just right for performance driving, putting pillars in the right place for road visibility, etc. Also things like massively over-sizing the cooling and braking systems so they don't overheat under extreme conditions or hard use. There is also the effectivness of the traction and stability control systems- which I think is related partially to oversizing the brakes. Even "serious" offroad vehicles from Lexus and Toyota don't have nearly as good of traction control offroad as a basic German passenger car.

lucianbr 2y ago

So what would I get from China instead of a BMW M4 or Audi S5? That would be on par for craftsmanship, dynamics, safety, reliability, price. I'm quite curious.

whatever1 2y ago
For ICE? There is no Chinese competition, but Kia stinger and Lexus RC are direct competition. In an EV world even the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can smoke the M4 or the S5. Take it for a test drive you will be shocked. For Chinese both BYD and Xiaomi have offerings in the space. (Btw I own an RS5 and would never trade it for an soul-less ev, but there are very few of us who care)
Wheaties466 2y ago
BYD Han EV, Zeekr 001, NIO ET7, XPeng P7, BYD Seal
- servus45678981 2y ago
  Those byds are really bad, just like the Xiaomi ones. They are falling apart and disturbing the public safety; one of the panels almost hit a passenger

nostrebored 2y ago

But what world is that? The one where we magically achieve the energy abundance necessary to support EVs? It’s unlikely, and as EV adoption winds up consuming more and more of the grid capacity, expect the TCO of these cars to skyrocket.

whatever1 2y ago
I mean who says that gas prices will not 10x in the next 20 years ? Crude oil is a scarce resource and it has become very inefficient to extract. Which is why even fracking is nowadays viable (at $100/barrel)
- nostrebored 2y ago
  If you believe that, buy some futures. I'll put my money in a savings account. Let's see who does better. Supply of oil is artificially constrained but completely necessary for the QoL that we're used to. Electricity prices for charging will much more than 10x to support a significant fraction of the population using EVs.
  - whatever1 2y ago
    If you sell me the said futures I will happily buy because nobody else sells. Hint to not go bankrupt before you decide to sell me, check the average current costs per barrel for the giants like xom and cvx. This is the price floor.
    - nostrebored 2y ago
      You can absolutely buy crude oil futures. Even as an individual investor.

_yb2s 2y ago

I agree with the reliability, but haven't seen that in the rest of what you mention. I'm definitely a car snob, and have driven high end luxury and sports cars from the Japanese and American companies, and they just don't have the driving experience, attention to detail, etc. of say, even a base model Porsche. It's tiny details most people probably don't notice- keeping the wind noise down with the windows and/or convertible top down, using corrosion resistant fasteners and coatings everywhere, perfectly tuning the pedal responsiveness and steering feel, balancing the weight, getting the gear ratios and/or shifting programs just right for performance driving, putting pillars in the right place for road visibility, etc. Also things like massively over-sizing the cooling and braking systems so they don't overheat under extreme conditions or hard use. There is also the effectivness of the traction and stability control systems- which I think is related partially to oversizing the brakes. Even "serious" offroad vehicles from Lexus and Toyota don't have nearly as good of traction control offroad as a basic German passenger car.