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This is a design choice. Building a device optimized for repairability is possible and has been realized by Framework [1]. Of course it doesn't have to be all-o

by mglz 2y ago

This is a design choice. Building a device optimized for repairability is possible and has been realized by Framework [1]. Of course it doesn't have to be all-out modularity, but an intermediate solution is easily possible. Vote with your wallets, don't allow a market to appear where only devices exist which are built to work against you. [1] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85

Symbiote 2y ago
Batteries on ordinary work laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo etc) are generally easily replaced — often with just ordinary screws!
- servus45678981 2y ago
  No they are not. Really often they are also using strong adhesive
  - alt227 2y ago
    Yes they are. I have repaired hundreds of laptops recently and all of them were only screws. No glue.
onion2k 2y ago
Building a device optimized for repairability is possible and has been realized by Framework. You post suggests you think optimizing for other things (cost, weight, thinness, etc) is bad. People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. That's not wrong.
- beretguy 2y ago
  > People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. I don’t think average “Apple product buyers” think about “optimizing things that are important to them” when they buy Apple products. They just buy them because they look “pretty and shiny”. Most of them don’t understand how Apple takes advantage of them. Any reasonable person would be repulsed being treated like that. Unfortunately, most people either are not tech savvy enough or don’t care to understand that Apple takes advantage of them. People need to be educated on how computers work and should work so that they understand what companies are doing and so that they could vote with their wallets.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - api 2y ago
    ... or they optimize for different things. I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option, but I like having a supercomputer in my backpack that can run for 6-8 hours on a charge with two VMs, 10 web browser tabs, a smart code editor, and several chonky Electron chat applications open. It also has 64GiB of unified CPU/GPU memory, making it able to run non-trivial local LLMs. I have never seen an Intel or AMD laptop that delivers both those things. There are underpowered light ones that last a long time, or portable workstations that will cook an imprint of the bottom of the case into your legs. AFAIK there is nothing in that domain that can run large LLMs due to either underpowered iGPUs or separate GPUs that would never have that much RAM on a laptop. A laptop CPU that can run, say, llama3 at a decent speed without GPU would be a portable space heater. I could replace the battery if I wanted but it's been two years and it still holds a charge fine. The thing that would make me ditch Apple is if they locked down the OS any more than it already is. Right now macOS treads a fine line between being restricted enough to be secure and safe for the less-technical user while remaining a "real computer." If they took away even the possibility of sudo root or worse tried to lock people into the App Store I'd be gone within a week or two. Also why I am not an iPad customer. It's basically a giant phone and as near as I can tell putting M processors in them is simply a waste. If I'm buying something that big and that expensive it should be a real computer. Part of the definition of real computer is that I can run any arbitrary code I want on it. If I can't do that it's a "console," which is how I classify most phones as well. Edit: making iDevices able to run VMs would get you almost there. You'd be able to run any code in theory but it'd be too disjoint from the main experience so still probably a nope for me.
    - alt227 2y ago
      > I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option > I like having a supercomputer in my backpack This shows where your priorities are, which is personal abundance over helping bigger global issues like waste and resource mining. Unfortunately you are joined by the majority of the population which is why things like climate change and poverty are still increasing even though everyone is very well aware of it.
- viraptor 2y ago
  The weight and thinness have been optimised beyond the point where it's meaningful. Weight between framework and mbair is 1.3kg vs 1.24kg and thickness 1.5cm vs 1.1cm. For practical purposes it just doesn't matter anymore.
  - frumper 2y ago
    I’d suggest battery replacement options by third party also doesn’t matter to most people.
- alt227 2y ago
  I would usually agree with you that pro choice is the best way and people should be able to prioritise whatever they want in a product. But in this modern age of extreme levels of e-waste and resource mining, companies should definitely be forced to prioritise repairability and sustainability over things like cost, weight, and thickness. I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    > I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong. My thinner essentially “unrepairable” laptop is now on its 6th year of use and I will probably get another 2 years out of it and has never required repair. The highly repairable all plastic laptop my company tried to provide me lasted 3 years and was repaired twice. I don’t mean to offend you…but if you are really worried about e-waste, you need to really think about longevity stats of the device as a whole within the brand and model. Even if you get a lemon that breaks and requires replacement because it cannot be repaired, that might be offset by a hundred or two that have lasted years.
Thorrez 2y ago
Is it a design choice? Ifixit sells a replacement battery for his laptop for $150. Apple refuses to sell a battery only, and instead sells a battery+keyboard bundle for $600. This doesn't seem like a laptop design choice, but rather a choice of what replacement parts to sell individually vs bundled together.
- beretguy 2y ago
  Apple is leaving themselves some room so that people like you can come to defend them, hence creating an illusion that what they are not doing is not wrong.
  - Thorrez 2y ago
    I'm criticizing Apple, not defending them. I think what Apple is doing is wrong. I'm saying Apple's laptop design optimization wasn't the problem, the problem is that Apple refuses to sell replacement batteries. I think refusing to sell replacement batteries is worse than optimizing a laptop for thinness instead of reparability.
throwaway48476 2y ago
The problem is most people are not experts on laptop design trade offs and only find out about these malicious practices years after purchase at which point they cannot vote with their wallet.
- lathiat 2y ago
  Which is exactly why we have industry standards elsewhere. Particularly in house building for example.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I've seen enough inspections to know building standards don't mean much.
    - lathiat 2y ago
      It's sadly true but also without such standards it'd be even worse, and, you'd have nothing to fall back on to try to force them to fix it.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
stevage 2y ago
I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months. I don't have that kind of forward planning. As much as I hate tech corporations, I don't really agree that the Macbook Pro is "built to work against you". Mostly it's a great laptop that serves my needs really well. It's mildly annoying that I'm paying for integration with a whole Apple ecosystem that is of no value to me (no iPhone, no iCloud), but it's nothing like intrusive marketing shitscape that is Windows.
- 4ggr0 2y ago
  I'd like to buy a Framework since 2+ years, but they don't ship to where I live so tough luck i guess :(
- alt227 2y ago
  > I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months This is exactly why Apple is thriving. People have no patience, and are not willing to wait or compromise on anything to get their powerful laptop right now.
sumuyuda 2y ago
How do you vote with your wallet when you can only do Apple software development on Apple hardware?

by mglz 2y ago

Symbiote 2y ago

Batteries on ordinary work laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo etc) are generally easily replaced — often with just ordinary screws!

servus45678981 2y ago
No they are not. Really often they are also using strong adhesive
- alt227 2y ago
  Yes they are. I have repaired hundreds of laptops recently and all of them were only screws. No glue.

onion2k 2y ago

Building a device optimized for repairability is possible and has been realized by Framework. You post suggests you think optimizing for other things (cost, weight, thinness, etc) is bad. People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. That's not wrong.

beretguy 2y ago
> People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. I don’t think average “Apple product buyers” think about “optimizing things that are important to them” when they buy Apple products. They just buy them because they look “pretty and shiny”. Most of them don’t understand how Apple takes advantage of them. Any reasonable person would be repulsed being treated like that. Unfortunately, most people either are not tech savvy enough or don’t care to understand that Apple takes advantage of them. People need to be educated on how computers work and should work so that they understand what companies are doing and so that they could vote with their wallets.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- api 2y ago
  ... or they optimize for different things. I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option, but I like having a supercomputer in my backpack that can run for 6-8 hours on a charge with two VMs, 10 web browser tabs, a smart code editor, and several chonky Electron chat applications open. It also has 64GiB of unified CPU/GPU memory, making it able to run non-trivial local LLMs. I have never seen an Intel or AMD laptop that delivers both those things. There are underpowered light ones that last a long time, or portable workstations that will cook an imprint of the bottom of the case into your legs. AFAIK there is nothing in that domain that can run large LLMs due to either underpowered iGPUs or separate GPUs that would never have that much RAM on a laptop. A laptop CPU that can run, say, llama3 at a decent speed without GPU would be a portable space heater. I could replace the battery if I wanted but it's been two years and it still holds a charge fine. The thing that would make me ditch Apple is if they locked down the OS any more than it already is. Right now macOS treads a fine line between being restricted enough to be secure and safe for the less-technical user while remaining a "real computer." If they took away even the possibility of sudo root or worse tried to lock people into the App Store I'd be gone within a week or two. Also why I am not an iPad customer. It's basically a giant phone and as near as I can tell putting M processors in them is simply a waste. If I'm buying something that big and that expensive it should be a real computer. Part of the definition of real computer is that I can run any arbitrary code I want on it. If I can't do that it's a "console," which is how I classify most phones as well. Edit: making iDevices able to run VMs would get you almost there. You'd be able to run any code in theory but it'd be too disjoint from the main experience so still probably a nope for me.
  - alt227 2y ago
    > I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option > I like having a supercomputer in my backpack This shows where your priorities are, which is personal abundance over helping bigger global issues like waste and resource mining. Unfortunately you are joined by the majority of the population which is why things like climate change and poverty are still increasing even though everyone is very well aware of it.
viraptor 2y ago
The weight and thinness have been optimised beyond the point where it's meaningful. Weight between framework and mbair is 1.3kg vs 1.24kg and thickness 1.5cm vs 1.1cm. For practical purposes it just doesn't matter anymore.
- frumper 2y ago
  I’d suggest battery replacement options by third party also doesn’t matter to most people.
alt227 2y ago
I would usually agree with you that pro choice is the best way and people should be able to prioritise whatever they want in a product. But in this modern age of extreme levels of e-waste and resource mining, companies should definitely be forced to prioritise repairability and sustainability over things like cost, weight, and thickness. I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong.
- kcplate 2y ago
  > I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong. My thinner essentially “unrepairable” laptop is now on its 6th year of use and I will probably get another 2 years out of it and has never required repair. The highly repairable all plastic laptop my company tried to provide me lasted 3 years and was repaired twice. I don’t mean to offend you…but if you are really worried about e-waste, you need to really think about longevity stats of the device as a whole within the brand and model. Even if you get a lemon that breaks and requires replacement because it cannot be repaired, that might be offset by a hundred or two that have lasted years.

Thorrez 2y ago

Is it a design choice? Ifixit sells a replacement battery for his laptop for $150. Apple refuses to sell a battery only, and instead sells a battery+keyboard bundle for $600. This doesn't seem like a laptop design choice, but rather a choice of what replacement parts to sell individually vs bundled together.

beretguy 2y ago
Apple is leaving themselves some room so that people like you can come to defend them, hence creating an illusion that what they are not doing is not wrong.
- Thorrez 2y ago
  I'm criticizing Apple, not defending them. I think what Apple is doing is wrong. I'm saying Apple's laptop design optimization wasn't the problem, the problem is that Apple refuses to sell replacement batteries. I think refusing to sell replacement batteries is worse than optimizing a laptop for thinness instead of reparability.

throwaway48476 2y ago

The problem is most people are not experts on laptop design trade offs and only find out about these malicious practices years after purchase at which point they cannot vote with their wallet.

lathiat 2y ago
Which is exactly why we have industry standards elsewhere. Particularly in house building for example.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  I've seen enough inspections to know building standards don't mean much.
  - lathiat 2y ago
    It's sadly true but also without such standards it'd be even worse, and, you'd have nothing to fall back on to try to force them to fix it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

stevage 2y ago

I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months. I don't have that kind of forward planning. As much as I hate tech corporations, I don't really agree that the Macbook Pro is "built to work against you". Mostly it's a great laptop that serves my needs really well. It's mildly annoying that I'm paying for integration with a whole Apple ecosystem that is of no value to me (no iPhone, no iCloud), but it's nothing like intrusive marketing shitscape that is Windows.

4ggr0 2y ago
I'd like to buy a Framework since 2+ years, but they don't ship to where I live so tough luck i guess :(
alt227 2y ago
> I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months This is exactly why Apple is thriving. People have no patience, and are not willing to wait or compromise on anything to get their powerful laptop right now.

sumuyuda 2y ago

How do you vote with your wallet when you can only do Apple software development on Apple hardware?