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I would add that this statement might equally apply to government - that is, if you disagree with the policies of a local government (property tax too high, sch

I would add that this statement might equally apply to government - that is, if you disagree with the policies of a local government (property tax too high, school district underperforming, etc), move somewhere else. If you disagree with your state, move to another one. And if you disagree with national policies, immigrate to a country whose policies you agree with. But therein lies the pitfall of freedom of association - if you disagree with your HOA, or your local/state/federal government, you may not have the financial or legal means to change your situation. I see a dichotomy of "associations with oversight" and the converse (associations with no oversight). If your HOA forces you to build a fence, there is no appeal process similar to if a government entity charges you with a crime (e.g. appeal to a state/federal circuit court and ultimately to a supreme court). Within each is an enforcement mechanism that may or may not work. In your dinner party example, which is an association with no oversight, a naked table dancer may simply crash the subsequent gatherings. In all levels of government, there are those who continue to hold their position regardless of the misdeeds and accusations levied against them. Perhaps that is the essential trade-off of freedom, to be free to associate with any group of people despite the possibility of being victimized by them (now or in the future).

CogitoCogito 2y ago
Yeah I'm having trouble understanding how /u/db48x's logic doesn't apply equally well to all political systems. Maybe the next time someone complains to me about Biden's policies, I should just respond that they don't understand freedom.
- db48x 2y ago
  The USA believes so hard in the freedom of association that we are willing to let people leave whenever they want. You don’t need permission, just find somewhere better and go there. Compare that with the Soviet Union, or East Germany, or China, or North Korea. In those countries leaving may technically be allowed, but may require a lifetime of asking for permission. The Soviet Union didn’t even provide its own people with maps lest they find out where the borders were.
  - mlrtime 2y ago
    As an American "leaving" you may need to pay your taxes on the way out (giving up citizenship).
  - ohmyiv 2y ago
    > Compare that with the Soviet Union, or East Germany, or China, or North Korea Would it be better to compare current, non-totalitarian governments, such as EU, Australia, or the like? It kind of sounds disingenuous to use extreme examples. (No dig to you or your opinion, just don't see how using those examples helps.)
    - db48x 2y ago
      As I already said, many countries have freedom of association to one degree or another. You could spend a lot of effort to distinguish countries with a similar degree of freedom, but I chose to list a few obvious examples of countries that do not have that freedom. Or did not, as the case may be.
lores 2y ago
Not a dig on you, but I find it telling that in discussions about the freedom of upping up and leaving, money is always mentioned as a limiting factor, but never community. For many, moving means losing the social ties they have, and that can be devastating. I wonder if it's a HN or American oversight.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  Does HN have a higher than average # of immigrants or first-generation citizens? That could explain it.
  - SpaceNoodled 2y ago
    No, introverts.
- randomdata 2y ago
  What do you mean? Per the discussion, escaping social ties is the whole point of wanting to leave. If you fit into the community, what reason would there be to leave?
  - lores 2y ago
    You can have a community in the neighbourhood who aren't ruling the HOA.
    - randomdata 2y ago
      But then said community will overthrow the HOA, so, again, no reason to leave. The earlier suggestion of leaving was based on a situation where you don't find the community you need. Escaping the social ties was the sole reason for leaving. Why would escaping a community that you don't fit into be the same limiting factor that keeps you there? That doesn't make any sense.
      - lores 2y ago

CogitoCogito 2y ago

Yeah I'm having trouble understanding how /u/db48x's logic doesn't apply equally well to all political systems. Maybe the next time someone complains to me about Biden's policies, I should just respond that they don't understand freedom.

db48x 2y ago
The USA believes so hard in the freedom of association that we are willing to let people leave whenever they want. You don’t need permission, just find somewhere better and go there. Compare that with the Soviet Union, or East Germany, or China, or North Korea. In those countries leaving may technically be allowed, but may require a lifetime of asking for permission. The Soviet Union didn’t even provide its own people with maps lest they find out where the borders were.
- mlrtime 2y ago
  As an American "leaving" you may need to pay your taxes on the way out (giving up citizenship).
- ohmyiv 2y ago
  > Compare that with the Soviet Union, or East Germany, or China, or North Korea Would it be better to compare current, non-totalitarian governments, such as EU, Australia, or the like? It kind of sounds disingenuous to use extreme examples. (No dig to you or your opinion, just don't see how using those examples helps.)
  - db48x 2y ago
    As I already said, many countries have freedom of association to one degree or another. You could spend a lot of effort to distinguish countries with a similar degree of freedom, but I chose to list a few obvious examples of countries that do not have that freedom. Or did not, as the case may be.

lores 2y ago

Not a dig on you, but I find it telling that in discussions about the freedom of upping up and leaving, money is always mentioned as a limiting factor, but never community. For many, moving means losing the social ties they have, and that can be devastating. I wonder if it's a HN or American oversight.

alistairSH 2y ago
Does HN have a higher than average # of immigrants or first-generation citizens? That could explain it.
- SpaceNoodled 2y ago
  No, introverts.
randomdata 2y ago
What do you mean? Per the discussion, escaping social ties is the whole point of wanting to leave. If you fit into the community, what reason would there be to leave?
- lores 2y ago
  You can have a community in the neighbourhood who aren't ruling the HOA.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    But then said community will overthrow the HOA, so, again, no reason to leave. The earlier suggestion of leaving was based on a situation where you don't find the community you need. Escaping the social ties was the sole reason for leaving. Why would escaping a community that you don't fit into be the same limiting factor that keeps you there? That doesn't make any sense.
    - lores 2y ago