7 ms·

There are many countries in the world which don't measure their freedom in eagles per square burger yet are totally free to associate, and they do. I cannot do

• AmericanChopper 2y ago
  > So if liberty is defined by randomness, yes, HOA defines the land of the free It’s the freedom to choose an HOA, or alternatively, anything else you like. Also, while HOAs might make decisions stupidly, I don’t think they do it randomly.
  • em-bee 2y ago
    they are doing it to exclude those that don't fit into their style of life. it's discrimination, plain and simple. to compare with europe: as far as i know germany or austria don't have the equivalent of a HOA, but what is allowed and what isn't is defined by local law. the closest example i could find are rules a landlord is allowed to impose on their tenants. for example, if i rent a house with garden, then the landlord can demand that i take care of the garden, but they can not specify how often i am supposed to mow the lawn or how high i let it grow. if not even a landlord can make such rules for their own property, then a HOA would have even less chance to make such rules for homeowners. that said, local laws can be quite far reaching, especially when it comes to aspects that affect the character of a neighborhood which includes rules on the outside design of the house and the front yard. not something i am happy about myself. beyond that these rules are mostly about things directly affect and cause problems for the neighbors. otherwise a homeowner has the right to do whatever they want on their property. as for the freedom to choose an HOA. no such freedom exists. because my choice of where i live is not defined by the HOA but by other considerations like location and cost and most importantly, availability. the argument that i could have moved somewhere else if i didn't like this HOA is not really reasonable given the housing shortage in most places. the right to live somewhere trumps the freedom of association
    • germanier 2y ago
      In Germany there is the in some - but not all - aspects similar concept of WEG (Wohneigentumsgemeinschaft).
      • em-bee 2y ago
        ah, right, but those are only in apartment buildings. it's a good place to research though what responsibilities and powers those have.
        • germanier 2y ago
          In buildings with differently owned apartments it's required but in theory (and in some places in practice) you could also setup multiple buildings on a common plot of land with one.
    • AmericanChopper 2y ago
      > they are doing it to exclude those that don't fit into their style of life. it's discrimination, plain and simple. Freedom of association is the freedom to associate with whoever you choose and not to associate with anybody you choose not to. You can’t have feeedom of association without the freedom to discriminate against people you don’t want to associate with. > the argument that i could have moved somewhere else if i didn't like this HOA is not really reasonable given the housing shortage in most places. Less than a third of US households are a part of HOAs, with most of them being apartments (where that type of regulation is typical almost everywhere in the world). Your argument that HOAs are monopolising housing supply doesn’t stand up to the facts.
      • AlexandrB 2y ago
        > You can’t have feeedom of association without the freedom to discriminate against people you don’t want to associate with. So I should be free to leave an HOA? No wait, I can't without selling my house as well. Restricting the right to free association as a condition for purchasing housing seems onerous.
  • arghwhat 2y ago
    You do not have the freedom to choose an HOA, only the freedom to move somewhere else. Unless you define "freedom" as "not held captive", I don't think that really counts. A fun John Oliver video on how corrupt HOA's are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrizmAo17Os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrizmAo17Os
    • AmericanChopper 2y ago
      I think HOAs are dumb, but who had ever been forced to buy a home that’s part of an HOA?
      • em-bee 2y ago
        according to the video, that would be 80% of those buying a home today.
      • lacksconfidence 2y ago
        It's not a force, it's a choice. When we bought our home every home built in the area in the last 40 years had an HOA. The only non-HOA choices are basically taking a giant gamble on how terribly the previous owners updated it to modern standards, instead of buying something built with modern plumbing and electrics. So sure, the HOA was a choice. But it was forced.
  • gpvos 2y ago
    Freedom? You usually have to live somewhere near your work or where other family lives, and most HOAs have very similar cookie-cutter rules with the differences determined by something akin to mob rule.
    • db48x 2y ago
      Most housing in the US is not part of an HOA. In fact, around half is apartments, and apartment dwellers are subject to rules made by their landlords. In an HOA (or condo association), at least you can vote on the rules or join the board.
• kennethwolters 2y ago
  Switzerland is an "ultra-localist" country according to Nassim Nicholas Taleb and I'd agree. The Kantons have more power than the federal government. So in essence, Switzerland and the USA are much alike. It's just that the USA has a flavor of this localism so extreme and chaotic that the resident in a way is supposed to relocate to a better place if they don't like it (see residents fleeing California for better places). Switzerland seems to have a more orderly form of localism where instead of the resident, the representative moves.
• helf 2y ago
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• Lendal 2y ago
  Most people in the US don't live in an HOA. You may join one and enjoy its benefits, or not. Nobody is forced to. Many people want to join an HOA to enjoy its benefits but not obey its rules. These are the type of people who believe they are the center of the universe yet are in such a unique position that the laws of the rest of the universe don't apply to them.
  • _heimdall 2y ago
    Its worth noting that its common, at least in my experience, for HOA membership to be part of a real estate purchase contract. Meaning, if you want to buy a house and it happens to be in a neighborhood with an HOA, you don't have the option to buy that house and not join the HOA. I've never understood why we allow that to be legal, just like neighborhoods or complexes that are age restricted, but we allow it none the less.
    • mattmaroon 2y ago
      We allow it to be legal because: 1. Most homes aren’t in an HOA, so you have plenty of options if you don’t like it. 2. It prevents all sorts of tragedies of the commons. 3. HOAs would have no power at all if you could opt out. It has to be part of the contract. They can be dissolved entirely, but that’s the only mechanism for getting out. 4. We believe in individual freedom, which includes the ability to chose to trade freedom for certain benefits. I trade my freedom to leave a rusty old boat in my driveway for the benefit of not having my neighbors do that. Most of us don’t have or want the sorts of things that bring down property values and don’t want to suddenly find ourselves living next to people who do. This is perhaps a symptom of a larger problem: homes are very expensive. If homes were cheap and moving were easy, perhaps HOAs would never have been invented. But for most Americans who own one a home is a substantial portion of their net worth. We want to protect it. People who complain about HOAs existing are the same as the people who complain about EVs. If you don’t want one, don’t buy it.
      • supplied_demand 2y ago
        ==If homes were cheap and moving were easy, perhaps HOAs would never have been invented. But for most Americans who own one a home is a substantial portion of their net worth. We want to protect it.== It may not have been the reason for their invention (I can't find information on that), but they certainly exploded in popularity in an effort to restrict people from selling their homes to non-white people (see: Racially Restrictive Covenants). It's kind of ironic to see people laud them as a form of "freedom" while their history as a tool of blatant racial discrimination is available for all to read. ==People who complain about HOAs existing are the same as the people who complain about EVs. If you don’t want one, don’t buy it.== Doesn't this act as a type of restriction on housing supply thus increasing the upward pressure on housing costs by limiting options? Not to mention the actual costs of funding the HOA, which directly increases housing prices.
• mattmaroon 2y ago
  That is not how HOAs work. They have a very defined set of rules, and a very defined process for changing and enforcing those rules. You are not at the mercy of anyone. Local laws supersede HOA rules where they conflict and often cause “grandfathering” when HOA rules change. For instance, my condo board tried to get me to remove my grill. I pointed out that nowhere in the condo bylaws was a grill mentioned. They said something about city fire codes, so I got a note from the fire department. They were unable to force me to do anything. HOAs in my city have passed rules saying owners may not use their condos for short term rental. But my city law says that changes do not apply to people who owned their rentals before the rules changed. So new owners may not but old ones still can. Rule of law still applies, and everything is agreed to when you buy the property. You could simply buy a home outside of an HOA, so this is, squarely, freedom of association. Nobody was implying that other countries do not have this freedom, in fact, he said the fact that they do is why he did not need to justify it.
  • jjav 2y ago
    > That is not how HOAs work. They have a very defined set of rules, and a very defined process for changing and enforcing those rules. You are not at the mercy of anyone. This is very idealistic, but not quite how it works. HOA boards can and do constantly violate with impunity the rules they are supposed to follow. Most often to embezzle funds but also to enforce their personal will. You can contest this of course, you can go to court. It takes pretty deep pockets to pay for lawyers and years of persistence. I know multiple people in years-and-years-long legal battles with HOAs. Those who have enough money to see it through often usually win, but it takes a lot of patience and money. Most people don't have that kind of cash to blow on fighting corrupt HOAs.
  • NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    > You are not at the mercy of anyone. In many jurisdictions within the United States, an HOA can assess fines for exceedingly trivial violations, then after the fines remain unpaid for a time period as short as 6 weeks, file to sell your home at auction to pay the fees. They can take your home from you, evict you from it, and this is deemed perfectly legal. Do they have to provide proof, for instance, that your grass was actually one half inch too tall? No, there is no adversarial process where they would have to prove that were the case. > I pointed out that nowhere in the condo bylaws was a grill mentioned. They said something about city fire codes, so I got a note from the fire department. They were unable to force me to do anything. It must be very thrilling to be able to be an amateur lawyer and win a case. Have fun, because those people tend to hold grudges. My experience is that you'll never have a week of peace for as long as you live there again.
• maicro 2y ago
  As an American with a strong general preference for the metric system, "eagles per square burger" is my new favorite sarcastic unit.