5 ms·

HOAs are a questionable entity in high-trust societies. In low-trust societies you wish for an HOA and would gladly pay 10x your property tax to be in one that

HOAs are a questionable entity in high-trust societies. In low-trust societies you wish for an HOA and would gladly pay 10x your property tax to be in one that has rules and enforcement teeth. Even something as simple as forcing the guy who keeps smoking and talking on speakerphone next to your window from 4pm to 1am to stop doing that.

xtracto 2y ago
Maybe HOAs in the UK or in Germany would seem crazy. I lived in those two places for years and in both places people generally BEHAVE. In Germany, you DO NOT throw glass bottles into the recycle bin on Sundays because of the noise they make. People just expect to be civil. In contrast, here in Mexico (where I am from) you need a HOA (or the equivalent) to avoid all sorts of crazy neighbours. From people blasting music and shouting at 1am, people leaving their trash out in the sidewalk permanently, parking their cars in front of your garage. To really making dangerous modifications to their house that will undoubtedly affect their neighbours.
forgetfreeman 2y ago
Nope. You'd be hard pressed to construct a narrative short of failed-state-need-24-hour-armed-security-to-survive where I'd entertain the notion of allowing 3rd parties any kind of say over what I can and can't do on my property.
- meetingthrower 2y ago
  Do you live in the country in a town with no zoning? You might be surprised...
  - edgyquant 2y ago
    I lived in a pretty small town growing up and we were forced to sell the car I was going to get at 16 because I was 15 and it had been sitting for months. The city gave us a warning and was going to start fining us everyday until we got rid of it
    - meowster 2y ago
      What was the warning for? Not being registered, not moving, etc? Those are things that your parents can fix without you being 16.
- db48x 2y ago
  You say that, but I bet you already live in a village, town, or city that has quite a lot of rules about what you can and cannot do. Noise ordinances, building codes, safety rules, fire codes, historical preservation, it goes on and on and on.
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    There's quite a bit of difference between building codes and empowering my neighbors to bitch about the color of my mailbox...
    - andybak 2y ago
      Yes but I bet everyone will disagree about exactly where to draw the line between the two types of rule. It's the middle where it gets fractious. Question - Have you ever lived in a high-density environment? apartment block, terrace row etc.? Someone who has will have a different stance on what is acceptable regulation to someone that's only lived in the density of typical US suburbia.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        Not exactly comparable but as someone who has lived all my life in apartments in Sweden have to say that people who grew up Swedish suburbia and moved into the city seems to be the most into deciding what others are allowed to do compared to people who have lived a long time in dense environments. Could just be that are used to different rules but I would not say we have more rules in the cities.
      - forgetfreeman 2y ago
        I've lived in trailer parks, downtown apartments, mid-town housing projects, suburban neighborhoods, hyper rural farming communities, and my car on a few occasions. I don't fuck with my neighbors and won't tolerate being fucked with, regardless of setting.
        andybak 2y ago
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  Umm sorry but that's nonsense - externalities of your property impacts your neighborhood and having rules upfront about what's acceptable is a good way to deal with conflicts and setting expectations. Laws have to be defined for the entire country. If I buy a house in a nice neighborhood and I pay extra because it's a nice neighborhood - I want to know that everyone has some standard of maintenance.
  - forgetfreeman 2y ago
    To put it as bluntly as possible I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut what you or others likeminded think is nonsense here. I live on 20 wooded acres surrounded by undeveloped forest lots ranging in size from 40 to 200 acres, the closest neighbor is half a mile away, and I couldn't pick anyone that lives there out of a police lineup if my life depended on it. I chose my location precidely to avoid this creeping horseshit notion that you've got rights over the things I own.
    - rboyd 2y ago
      You described nearly exactly my little place here in the countryside too. I noticed property taxes were up this year, and the electric co-op cut down two of my favorite trees while I was on vacation because they said they were too close to the lines. There’s always something. sigh
      - forgetfreeman 2y ago
        The power co-op cleared three problem trees after I called them out which opened things up enough that I've been able to drop a bunch more myself with no issues. Got an Alaska mill on the way to process the trunks into lumber, the greenhouse is going in this fall. My only real complaint is the bizarre amount of mice we have on the property, but that's a solvable problem.
    - fastball 2y ago
      So you wouldn't mind if someone bought the property closest to wherever your house is on your 20 acres, cut down the undeveloped forest, and built an abattoir right on the property line?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
But leaf blowers 7 am are fine xD
- db48x 2y ago
  7am is well after sunrise in most places, most of the year. Your personal tolerance for sounds at that hour should not be regarded as universal.
  - yourapostasy 2y ago
    A lot of my friends who in their younger years held this position rapidly backpedaled after they added babies to their homes. There are very effective sound mitigation solutions available though, if you're willing and able to afford to remodel the room(s) you want to defend against such external sounds. I interpret such actions as what to normally expect in a lower trust society and culture. We pay for such settings in many different ways.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Leaf blowers are noise pollution regardless of the time of the day, which has short and long term effects on health.
    - db48x 2y ago
      Well, I don’t disagree with that. My point is only that 7am is a perfectly fine hour to be out doing something productive. Make hay while the sun shines.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    And electric lighting exists. If you're going to define when noise is acceptable based on when any significant contingent of people are up and active, then noise at 1AM (3AM on weekends) also falls under that definition. Yet the early riser coalition tends to complain about that... And never mind that the main value add of leaf blowers (over the traditional rake) is to coat your neighbors with debris and dust, thus necessitating even more cleaning (inside too, if they dared to have their windows open). Also I'd say it's your characterization of freedom that is a narrow misunderstanding. I'd define freedom as the ability for individuals to make their own choices in the presence of society. Being the only person for miles and thus being "free" to do whatever you want isn't some sensible ideal of freedom, rather it's a pathological case that has made freedom irrelevant. In other words, freedom itself directly depends on tolerance. And by the time a city is forcing someone to build yet another ticky-tack fence to hide the mere sight of a perhaps-ill-advised boat it's clear that there is very little tolerance aka respect for freedom.

xtracto 2y ago

Maybe HOAs in the UK or in Germany would seem crazy. I lived in those two places for years and in both places people generally BEHAVE. In Germany, you DO NOT throw glass bottles into the recycle bin on Sundays because of the noise they make. People just expect to be civil. In contrast, here in Mexico (where I am from) you need a HOA (or the equivalent) to avoid all sorts of crazy neighbours. From people blasting music and shouting at 1am, people leaving their trash out in the sidewalk permanently, parking their cars in front of your garage. To really making dangerous modifications to their house that will undoubtedly affect their neighbours.

forgetfreeman 2y ago

Nope. You'd be hard pressed to construct a narrative short of failed-state-need-24-hour-armed-security-to-survive where I'd entertain the notion of allowing 3rd parties any kind of say over what I can and can't do on my property.

meetingthrower 2y ago
Do you live in the country in a town with no zoning? You might be surprised...
- edgyquant 2y ago
  I lived in a pretty small town growing up and we were forced to sell the car I was going to get at 16 because I was 15 and it had been sitting for months. The city gave us a warning and was going to start fining us everyday until we got rid of it
  - meowster 2y ago
    What was the warning for? Not being registered, not moving, etc? Those are things that your parents can fix without you being 16.
db48x 2y ago
You say that, but I bet you already live in a village, town, or city that has quite a lot of rules about what you can and cannot do. Noise ordinances, building codes, safety rules, fire codes, historical preservation, it goes on and on and on.
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  There's quite a bit of difference between building codes and empowering my neighbors to bitch about the color of my mailbox...
  - andybak 2y ago
    Yes but I bet everyone will disagree about exactly where to draw the line between the two types of rule. It's the middle where it gets fractious. Question - Have you ever lived in a high-density environment? apartment block, terrace row etc.? Someone who has will have a different stance on what is acceptable regulation to someone that's only lived in the density of typical US suburbia.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      Not exactly comparable but as someone who has lived all my life in apartments in Sweden have to say that people who grew up Swedish suburbia and moved into the city seems to be the most into deciding what others are allowed to do compared to people who have lived a long time in dense environments. Could just be that are used to different rules but I would not say we have more rules in the cities.
    - forgetfreeman 2y ago
      I've lived in trailer parks, downtown apartments, mid-town housing projects, suburban neighborhoods, hyper rural farming communities, and my car on a few occasions. I don't fuck with my neighbors and won't tolerate being fucked with, regardless of setting.
      - andybak 2y ago
rafaelmn 2y ago
Umm sorry but that's nonsense - externalities of your property impacts your neighborhood and having rules upfront about what's acceptable is a good way to deal with conflicts and setting expectations. Laws have to be defined for the entire country. If I buy a house in a nice neighborhood and I pay extra because it's a nice neighborhood - I want to know that everyone has some standard of maintenance.
- forgetfreeman 2y ago
  To put it as bluntly as possible I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut what you or others likeminded think is nonsense here. I live on 20 wooded acres surrounded by undeveloped forest lots ranging in size from 40 to 200 acres, the closest neighbor is half a mile away, and I couldn't pick anyone that lives there out of a police lineup if my life depended on it. I chose my location precidely to avoid this creeping horseshit notion that you've got rights over the things I own.
  - rboyd 2y ago
    You described nearly exactly my little place here in the countryside too. I noticed property taxes were up this year, and the electric co-op cut down two of my favorite trees while I was on vacation because they said they were too close to the lines. There’s always something. sigh
    - forgetfreeman 2y ago
      The power co-op cleared three problem trees after I called them out which opened things up enough that I've been able to drop a bunch more myself with no issues. Got an Alaska mill on the way to process the trunks into lumber, the greenhouse is going in this fall. My only real complaint is the bizarre amount of mice we have on the property, but that's a solvable problem.
  - fastball 2y ago
    So you wouldn't mind if someone bought the property closest to wherever your house is on your 20 acres, cut down the undeveloped forest, and built an abattoir right on the property line?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago

But leaf blowers 7 am are fine xD

db48x 2y ago
7am is well after sunrise in most places, most of the year. Your personal tolerance for sounds at that hour should not be regarded as universal.
- yourapostasy 2y ago
  A lot of my friends who in their younger years held this position rapidly backpedaled after they added babies to their homes. There are very effective sound mitigation solutions available though, if you're willing and able to afford to remodel the room(s) you want to defend against such external sounds. I interpret such actions as what to normally expect in a lower trust society and culture. We pay for such settings in many different ways.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Leaf blowers are noise pollution regardless of the time of the day, which has short and long term effects on health.
  - db48x 2y ago
    Well, I don’t disagree with that. My point is only that 7am is a perfectly fine hour to be out doing something productive. Make hay while the sun shines.
- mindslight 2y ago
  And electric lighting exists. If you're going to define when noise is acceptable based on when any significant contingent of people are up and active, then noise at 1AM (3AM on weekends) also falls under that definition. Yet the early riser coalition tends to complain about that... And never mind that the main value add of leaf blowers (over the traditional rake) is to coat your neighbors with debris and dust, thus necessitating even more cleaning (inside too, if they dared to have their windows open). Also I'd say it's your characterization of freedom that is a narrow misunderstanding. I'd define freedom as the ability for individuals to make their own choices in the presence of society. Being the only person for miles and thus being "free" to do whatever you want isn't some sensible ideal of freedom, rather it's a pathological case that has made freedom irrelevant. In other words, freedom itself directly depends on tolerance. And by the time a city is forcing someone to build yet another ticky-tack fence to hide the mere sight of a perhaps-ill-advised boat it's clear that there is very little tolerance aka respect for freedom.