5 ms·

> Then there are the equally useless "just switch OSes!" arguments. When an OS and the company that makes it keeps on showing you that you don't own your compu

by pdonis 2y ago

> Then there are the equally useless "just switch OSes!" arguments. When an OS and the company that makes it keeps on showing you that you don't own your computer, they do, at some point switching should be on your radar.

ziddoap 2y ago
This ignores the large amount of business software which is Windows only. For many companies, and the people that work for them, you simply can't switch even if you are desperate to.
- bsder 2y ago
  This used to be an excuse. So much business software has migrated to browser based applications that most people could dump Windows and would never notice. This is why Microsoft has been pushing Office365 so hard.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Neither SolidWorks nor QuickBooks runs in browser. Those two pieces of software are absolutely essential to many companies.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      Both run on macOS.
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        Not officially, therefor not with support.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Not officially Yes, officially [1][2]. [1] https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-article/install-products/install-set-quickbooks-desktop-mac/L4rzUusTS_US_en_US https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-artic... [2] https://www.solidworks.com/support/system-requirements https://www.solidworks.com/support/system-requirements
        ziddoap 2y ago
        Sorry, I should have been more specific. QuickBooks for Mac is not feature-equivilent to QuickBooks Enterprise. You cannot run QuickBooks Enterprise on a Mac, as far as I know, and if you can, it isn't on the supported OS list. >"Note: Linux and Windows 10 S Mode not supported. QuickBooks requires you to use Windows natively and not through an emulator or virtual environment." From https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-article/product-system-requirements/system-requirements-quickbooks-desktop-2024/L3PMFJBjS_US_en_US https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-artic... Solidworks only supports eDrawings for Mac. eDrawings is not what I was referring to.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Fair enough.
        vetinari 2y ago
        Software like Quickbooks is easy to run via RemoteApp. In fact, many probably do that, because it makes for easier maintenance. (I've seen several companies to run Dynamics AX exactly this way, for exactly this reason). With Solidworks, it would be much more difficult. It is a kind of software, you want to run locally on your beefy workstation.
        FileSorter 2y ago
        eDrawings for Mac is not Solidworks
        mrkeen 2y ago
        'Support' is such a nebulous, catch-all term to justify throwing good money after bad. The author paid for Windows 11. Why try to crowdsource help for free when they can presumably just pick up a phone and get Microsoft to fix their problem for them?
        ziddoap 2y ago
        >Support' is such a nebulous, catch-all term to justify throwing good money after bad. Or it means that QuickBooks is running into issues, and there is no in-house IT department to troubleshoot it, so they call up QuickBooks support.
        TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
        > QuickBooks support. Now that really is throwing good money after bad. QuickBooks has some of the absolute worst support money can buy.
        ziddoap 2y ago
        I mean, I'm not going to defend the quality of their support. But if your a small company (i.e. no in-house IT) and you have to choose between using the support included with your purchase of QuickBooks or paying a third-party IT company an hourly consulting rate to fix a QuickBooks problem... The choice is pretty clear.
    - bsder 2y ago
      QuickBooks online doesn't seem to need Windows. Since it works from apps, I assume it works from macOS as well. Fusion360 works on macOS and has been pounding the hell out of SolidWorks in the small business sector.
      - ziddoap 2y ago
        QuickBooks online is a very far cry from QuickBooks Enterprise. Like, they aren't even close to the same program.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      Technically QuickBooks is no longer available outside of a web browser connected to Intuit's servers.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - WheatMillington 2y ago
    I am a daily excel user, and excel in the browse is a joke.
- xcv123 2y ago
  Matlab runs on Linux and Mac. He can switch.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Matlab is not the only software which businesses use. I'm speaking generally why many companies and employees can't "just switch OS", not specifically to the post.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    Maybe. There are Matlab widgets and extensions which could be Windows only.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Where "business software" is, in particular, the software for running a business. Your CAD or simulation software or development environment may all be fully-supported on Linux, but that means nothing, because corporate wants their SharePoint and Exchange servers and analytics attached to them, and corporate IT in particular wants their "security" software and remote management capabilities. All of that is what chains larger companies to Windows.
- bartread 2y ago
  This actually is a very valid point at the most obvious level: Office 365. Nowadays I work on a Mac (finally![0]) and, yes, Office 365 is available for macOS, but it’s not at parity with Office 365 on Windows. Mostly this doesn’t matter and it’s certainly a lot more capable than any of the web versions of the office apps. But, at least for me, it does sometimes matter with Excel. So I decided to use Wine to install the Windows version of Office 365. The installer started but it crapped out after the intro page and I haven’t been able to get past the error. I could install Parallels but I kind of hate it because it involves running Windows whose bag o’ shiteness is the whole reason I’m so ecstatic about having a job where I can work on a Mac in the first place. Realistically, there isn’t anything that comes close to O365 either. Excel is the best spreadsheet app, still, by a country mile, and all the other apps are best in class too. So it’s the industry standard in just about every industry and if you’re in one of the few companies who’ve gone a different way then in some scenarios it can make you kind of a pain in the ass to deal with. [0] I fully accept that this may just be a stepping stone toward working on Linux. Hopefully by the time I need to do it support for a Linux on laptops will be a bit better, and I’ll be able to avoid buying a Dell.
- pdonis 2y ago
  > business software Which will be running on Windows Enterprise deployments owned by the business, not personal machines owned by individuals. And as has already been commented, Windows Enterprise does let you control this. But that case doesn't seem to be what the discussion here is about.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    >Which will be running on Windows Enterprise deployments There are many companies which run Windows-specific software which do not even have an in-house IT department, let alone run Enterprise edition on corporately-deployed machines. I'd say the vast majority of <50 person companies I have consulted for run Pro, not Enterprise.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    Many businesses do not run Windows Enterprise, but plain-old Pro. Not every business is a big business, capable of reaching to these SKUs. What they can do, is to run WSUS. Though today, many businesses do not have on-prem Windows Server deployments, and do not even have suitable space in their offices even if they wanted one.
linguae 2y ago
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, the commercial desktop OS market is a duopoly. Either we must deal with Windows and its shenanigans, or we must deal with macOS and its drawbacks (the chief ones being limited hardware choices, soldered RAM and storage, and highly inflated prices for RAM and storage upgrades). Switching to Linux or the BSDs is an option for some people, but what about those who rely on software that is only available on Windows and macOS? Having to choose between Windows and the Mac has been the situation since the late 1990s. There hasn’t been any strong commercial challengers to these operating systems since the demise of BeOS.
- mrkeen 2y ago
  > but what about those who rely on software that is only available on Windows and macOS? No-one ever considers the dual of this: if you started using Linux, what software would be so vital that you couldn't consider switching to windows?
  - mamcx 2y ago
    The most brutal category of all is ERPs/Accounting packages ... and Office.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - LeifCarrotson 2y ago
    Rockwell Studio 5000. FactoryTalk View Studio. Autodesk Electrical. Autodesk Inventor. Fanuc Roboguide. This package is part of the pay-to-play entry barrier in my industrial controls industry. My quotes don't win jobs if I can't use these tools. None of these very expensive (the above items add up to more than $25,000, not even counting the subscription fees), closed source applications have native Linux installers or have any hope to run in Wine. I run a Linux host OS with Windows VMs for the various incompatible versions of these pieces of software that I have to keep around to maintain old equipment, but these software packages are only available on Windows. Fortunately, the industry has embraced Windows 10 LTSC (in machines where we're not still running Windows CE 6.0, LOL), so I'm good through at least 2032.
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
Right; in the short term it's probably not in the answer, but in the medium-long term you should really at least evaluate it.
mvkel 2y ago
Eh. It feels similar in spirit to telling a depressed person to "just think positively." Many people are on an OS they hate not because they choose to be.
WheatMillington 2y ago
I've tried linux several times. As a non-tech guy, I find it utterly frustrating. It's so intensely user-unfriendly, I am done with wasting my time on it.
- vetinari 2y ago
  It is user friendly, just picky, who it's friends are ;-) More seriously though, you are probably bringing assumptions, that are specific to your current OS, and frustrated, that your existing experience is not 100% transferable. This works both ways; if you tried to switch from linux to your current OS, you would be also frustrated by this.
- DEADMINCE 2y ago
  Have you tried the easy to use distros like mint or elementary?

by pdonis 2y ago

ziddoap 2y ago

This ignores the large amount of business software which is Windows only. For many companies, and the people that work for them, you simply can't switch even if you are desperate to.

bsder 2y ago
This used to be an excuse. So much business software has migrated to browser based applications that most people could dump Windows and would never notice. This is why Microsoft has been pushing Office365 so hard.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Neither SolidWorks nor QuickBooks runs in browser. Those two pieces of software are absolutely essential to many companies.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Both run on macOS.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      Not officially, therefor not with support.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Not officially Yes, officially [1][2]. [1] https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-article/install-products/install-set-quickbooks-desktop-mac/L4rzUusTS_US_en_US https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-artic... [2] https://www.solidworks.com/support/system-requirements https://www.solidworks.com/support/system-requirements
        ziddoap 2y ago
        Sorry, I should have been more specific. QuickBooks for Mac is not feature-equivilent to QuickBooks Enterprise. You cannot run QuickBooks Enterprise on a Mac, as far as I know, and if you can, it isn't on the supported OS list. >"Note: Linux and Windows 10 S Mode not supported. QuickBooks requires you to use Windows natively and not through an emulator or virtual environment." From https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-article/product-system-requirements/system-requirements-quickbooks-desktop-2024/L3PMFJBjS_US_en_US https://quickbooks.intuit.com/learn-support/en-us/help-artic... Solidworks only supports eDrawings for Mac. eDrawings is not what I was referring to.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Fair enough.
        vetinari 2y ago
        Software like Quickbooks is easy to run via RemoteApp. In fact, many probably do that, because it makes for easier maintenance. (I've seen several companies to run Dynamics AX exactly this way, for exactly this reason). With Solidworks, it would be much more difficult. It is a kind of software, you want to run locally on your beefy workstation.
        FileSorter 2y ago
        eDrawings for Mac is not Solidworks
      - mrkeen 2y ago
        'Support' is such a nebulous, catch-all term to justify throwing good money after bad. The author paid for Windows 11. Why try to crowdsource help for free when they can presumably just pick up a phone and get Microsoft to fix their problem for them?
        ziddoap 2y ago
        >Support' is such a nebulous, catch-all term to justify throwing good money after bad. Or it means that QuickBooks is running into issues, and there is no in-house IT department to troubleshoot it, so they call up QuickBooks support.
        TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
        > QuickBooks support. Now that really is throwing good money after bad. QuickBooks has some of the absolute worst support money can buy.
        ziddoap 2y ago
        I mean, I'm not going to defend the quality of their support. But if your a small company (i.e. no in-house IT) and you have to choose between using the support included with your purchase of QuickBooks or paying a third-party IT company an hourly consulting rate to fix a QuickBooks problem... The choice is pretty clear.
  - bsder 2y ago
    QuickBooks online doesn't seem to need Windows. Since it works from apps, I assume it works from macOS as well. Fusion360 works on macOS and has been pounding the hell out of SolidWorks in the small business sector.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      QuickBooks online is a very far cry from QuickBooks Enterprise. Like, they aren't even close to the same program.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    Technically QuickBooks is no longer available outside of a web browser connected to Intuit's servers.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- WheatMillington 2y ago
  I am a daily excel user, and excel in the browse is a joke.
xcv123 2y ago
Matlab runs on Linux and Mac. He can switch.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Matlab is not the only software which businesses use. I'm speaking generally why many companies and employees can't "just switch OS", not specifically to the post.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Maybe. There are Matlab widgets and extensions which could be Windows only.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
Where "business software" is, in particular, the software for running a business. Your CAD or simulation software or development environment may all be fully-supported on Linux, but that means nothing, because corporate wants their SharePoint and Exchange servers and analytics attached to them, and corporate IT in particular wants their "security" software and remote management capabilities. All of that is what chains larger companies to Windows.
bartread 2y ago
This actually is a very valid point at the most obvious level: Office 365. Nowadays I work on a Mac (finally![0]) and, yes, Office 365 is available for macOS, but it’s not at parity with Office 365 on Windows. Mostly this doesn’t matter and it’s certainly a lot more capable than any of the web versions of the office apps. But, at least for me, it does sometimes matter with Excel. So I decided to use Wine to install the Windows version of Office 365. The installer started but it crapped out after the intro page and I haven’t been able to get past the error. I could install Parallels but I kind of hate it because it involves running Windows whose bag o’ shiteness is the whole reason I’m so ecstatic about having a job where I can work on a Mac in the first place. Realistically, there isn’t anything that comes close to O365 either. Excel is the best spreadsheet app, still, by a country mile, and all the other apps are best in class too. So it’s the industry standard in just about every industry and if you’re in one of the few companies who’ve gone a different way then in some scenarios it can make you kind of a pain in the ass to deal with. [0] I fully accept that this may just be a stepping stone toward working on Linux. Hopefully by the time I need to do it support for a Linux on laptops will be a bit better, and I’ll be able to avoid buying a Dell.
pdonis 2y ago
> business software Which will be running on Windows Enterprise deployments owned by the business, not personal machines owned by individuals. And as has already been commented, Windows Enterprise does let you control this. But that case doesn't seem to be what the discussion here is about.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >Which will be running on Windows Enterprise deployments There are many companies which run Windows-specific software which do not even have an in-house IT department, let alone run Enterprise edition on corporately-deployed machines. I'd say the vast majority of <50 person companies I have consulted for run Pro, not Enterprise.
- vetinari 2y ago
  Many businesses do not run Windows Enterprise, but plain-old Pro. Not every business is a big business, capable of reaching to these SKUs. What they can do, is to run WSUS. Though today, many businesses do not have on-prem Windows Server deployments, and do not even have suitable space in their offices even if they wanted one.

linguae 2y ago

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, the commercial desktop OS market is a duopoly. Either we must deal with Windows and its shenanigans, or we must deal with macOS and its drawbacks (the chief ones being limited hardware choices, soldered RAM and storage, and highly inflated prices for RAM and storage upgrades). Switching to Linux or the BSDs is an option for some people, but what about those who rely on software that is only available on Windows and macOS? Having to choose between Windows and the Mac has been the situation since the late 1990s. There hasn’t been any strong commercial challengers to these operating systems since the demise of BeOS.

mrkeen 2y ago
> but what about those who rely on software that is only available on Windows and macOS? No-one ever considers the dual of this: if you started using Linux, what software would be so vital that you couldn't consider switching to windows?
- mamcx 2y ago
  The most brutal category of all is ERPs/Accounting packages ... and Office.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- LeifCarrotson 2y ago
  Rockwell Studio 5000. FactoryTalk View Studio. Autodesk Electrical. Autodesk Inventor. Fanuc Roboguide. This package is part of the pay-to-play entry barrier in my industrial controls industry. My quotes don't win jobs if I can't use these tools. None of these very expensive (the above items add up to more than $25,000, not even counting the subscription fees), closed source applications have native Linux installers or have any hope to run in Wine. I run a Linux host OS with Windows VMs for the various incompatible versions of these pieces of software that I have to keep around to maintain old equipment, but these software packages are only available on Windows. Fortunately, the industry has embraced Windows 10 LTSC (in machines where we're not still running Windows CE 6.0, LOL), so I'm good through at least 2032.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago

Right; in the short term it's probably not in the answer, but in the medium-long term you should really at least evaluate it.

mvkel 2y ago

Eh. It feels similar in spirit to telling a depressed person to "just think positively." Many people are on an OS they hate not because they choose to be.

WheatMillington 2y ago

I've tried linux several times. As a non-tech guy, I find it utterly frustrating. It's so intensely user-unfriendly, I am done with wasting my time on it.

vetinari 2y ago
It is user friendly, just picky, who it's friends are ;-) More seriously though, you are probably bringing assumptions, that are specific to your current OS, and frustrated, that your existing experience is not 100% transferable. This works both ways; if you tried to switch from linux to your current OS, you would be also frustrated by this.
DEADMINCE 2y ago
Have you tried the easy to use distros like mint or elementary?